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There are some arguments against NEON OO Model on which Mops and Win32Forth are based. Most of those arguments stands on some implicit presuppositions that lead to the conclusionthat NEON OO Model is bad. I hate to participate in political debates disdaining something. But I will try here to defend NEON OO Model against tricky arguments. By the way, I never try to refute other OO models than that of Mops. Simply I want to free Mops OO Model from wrong images. An Object should be passed via parameter stack in Forth dialects? In Object Orientation Semantics, Object is a receiver of messages and an actor. It is not considered as a Data or Parameter or other thing to be passed to a procedure via parameter stack. Surely, an object is internally some data in Mops and Win32Forth, too. But the fact belongs to the implementation details. Implementation detail is another problem than the syntax and semantics of a language. If one says objects must be data so that they must be passed via parameter stack as parameters, the one is losing sight of OO semantics and sticking to the second class or pseudo OO, say, "Data Orientation". Of course, it is never wrong in itself for objects to be able to be passed as parameters. The objectID (normally pointer) of an object is surely a datum. But at the same time it could not be called a defect of the system if an object would not be passed as a parameter in normal message sending. So "selector object" syntax is never worse than "object selector" syntax from the view of OO semantics (human interpretation). Or rather "selector object" syntax is better in message sending appearance in my opinion because it distiguishes the actor (object) from parameters to be processed by it. The fact that Selector cannot be ticked hinders extensibility. By the way, why can Selector always be ticked? Tick pushes xt of the word ticked to data stack. Which xt? Selector is not a word in that its execution semantics is undefined without combining witha class or object. Surely, after defining a way of binding a selector can be ticked. That is, we can do in NEON Model AMETHOD SELECTOR [] ; AMETHOD But it is because by defining the selector as being late bound, looking for the appropriate method of a passed object through class linkage becomes a part of contents of SELECTOR s execution semantics.The opinion that a selecor should always be tickable is based on a presupposition thatselector always has its definite execution semantics.But the presupposition itself is false in NEON Model.In OO semantics of NEON Model it is object, not selector that looks for method in its class on gentting message. Normal selector in NEON model is a part of message but not a name of a procedure by itself. Still you need early bound method xt? If so you can do in PowerMops ref ACLASS AnObjRef no_subclasses \ ossia ObjPtr AnObjRef class_is ACLASS AMETHOD ( param1 param2 ... ^obj -- ? ) - AnObjRef SELECTOR AnObjRef ; AMETHOD Or you need faster late bound method xt using a methods table? If so you can do in PowerMops ref ACLASS AnObjRef AMETHOD ( param1 param2 ... ^obj -- ? ) - AnObjRef SELECTOR AnObjRef ; AMETHOD AnObjRef can be a temporary (that is, local) object when it is declared with "ref". Addition (8/3/06) An object could be seen as an actor or data+index to method. parameters selector object syntax shows the object as an actor and parameters+selector=message as Input to the object. That is, selector is a part of input to object.It is default OO syntax of NEON model, so we cannot reproduce the process or function from selector via tick. Why could we know from a part of the input, the process in which it will be thrown? On the other hand, Mops allows also to see an object as data+index to method.Index to method is a pointer to the class or to the method table in PowerMops.Other optional arrangements for method binding represent this consideration. Smalltalk-like late bind is slow. Yes, it is slow compared with early bind. Late bind is about 20 times slower than early bind in some bench mark code in PowerMops.But early bound method is very fast in PowerMops. Although it can not be generalized, early bound method of PowerMops on PPC seems to be about 5 times faster than equivalent non-OO code in GForth native on x86 machine in CPU clock base from some data. Anyway, PowerMops early bound method is really fast.Late bind is slower than _it_. On PowerPC, PowerMops late bound method is about 10 % faster than non-OO equivalent codein GForth 0.6.2. Damn slow? Definitely NO. In reality, iterative late binding (polymorphism) happens often on a heavy task in itself like "DRAW".In such a case over head concerning method binding is almost negligible. Besides. Who can say NEON Model is incompatible with a vtable like late bind?PowerMops class does build a methods table. It is not the matter of OO model.Again, an implementation detail!PowerMops doesn t require something like VIRTUAL declarations of methods, unlike C++.Quite handy. To tell the truth, PowerMops normal (wihout vtable) late binding implementation has a special search optimization (acceleration) mechanism. As the result, it becomes fast as it is.System implementer can and should elaborate one s implementation in order to make the system fit with the preference, unless the implementation details should be controlled by others. Conclusion An argument such that using such and such technique internally is bad will come typically from the view of language system implementers, not from that of users of the language. We could see the OO feature of a language as one of the tools to write application in the language. Implementation details could be left to the ingenuity of system implementers.Then we could concentrate the syntax-semantics relation of OO constructs.In this respect NEON model is not bad. If you have your own (favorite) Forth with OO extension different from NEON model,NEON model may look bad and ununderstandable. So what?From my experience Mops OO feature is very good for application programming.But if you don t understand and never have done programming in Mops, Mops code will look like unreadable. That would hold for any languages.The strength of OO syntax of PowerMops may be best realized when you are writing some application in PowerMops. -- Maybe not when you are trying to implement the OO model for your system. Theories concerning OO generally look like bound by (negatively or positively) the world view of Algol family (C, C++, Java). But Forth is flexible and extensible language, instead of inflexible and fixed language, like C.Why do we need to worry about OO theories build (aversively) on (procedural or sometimes even including hybrid type) Algol family languages?Java model may be good (the best? how about Objective-C? you stick to the (a bit old) industry and/or scholastic standard? It may be ok. But unfortunately we are free from such a credo.) OO construct in context of C. But its OO syntax and semantics look still in half way. "When an object is passed as a parameter to a procedure,the procedure checks the class and ..." This sounds like always-virtualized C++. But we really need it on Forth?Surely NEON model didn t look like (reversed) Java. But so what? Is it a bad signal in itself? In my opinion, the thought that an object is data is a quite low level idea.Even if such a thought is allowable, taking an object quite the same as other parameters is wrong according to the standard OO way of thinking. It might be better to push object IDs onto another stack than normal parameter stack in that such a thought, at least, is not confusing objects with data parameters.But once we suppose a special object stack to which objects are dynamically pushed at runtime, default late binding begins to look very natural in order to send messages consecutively to anonymous objects in the object stack. This thought seems to treat objects as a group of data.This grouping is realized as class-structures in Java or C++. Late binding loosens tight and narrow restrictions of class-as-type mechanism in Java or C++,and virtual method utilize this looser grouping. So late binding (sometimes identified with polymorphism) is seen as the true establishment of OO for Java or C++. In this philosophy, an instance (individual) is derived from its group (whole or class structure). Building the structure (set-subset grouping) is more important than individual objects. Objects (instances) are processed by something (method) according to the group they belongs to. Methods are the first class entities in this view, so each of them should have the independent meaning inspite of naming collisions.This is quite different from the philosophy of NEON model where the property of an individual object is more important than class structure, and the structure is a mere result of the similarity of properties among objects. Objects (instances) process some data as processors using their methods.Objects are the first class entities and methods are secondary (ancillary) to the object that knows them. Surely, PowerMops uses systemcall functions. Those are written in C++ so that a system object is a data -- low level object -- to be passed as a parameter to a function.But we know our OO model can cohabit with it because ours lives at higher level. In NEON OO model we don t need to stick to the lower level to keep low level accessibility because our moving to the higer level never sacrifice the lower level constructs. Such a cohabitation of low level and high level is Forth, I think. In my humble opinion, C++ or Java looks like taking a side road to OO. In Smalltalk or NEON model we think that an object has its ability (functionality) and propertiesand shares those with other objects by inheritance. While in C++ or Java all such things seem to be treated in view of accessibility. It is not, of course, illogical. But at the same time such accessibility definitions can be so much complicated thatan object cannot be recognizable as a semantically definite entity. I suspect that this growing tendency of the complication of rules to define wether to allow/prohibit accessing may cause, so to speak, concentration of abstract class structure and thought that an object is a mere data because such a complication is very likely to break the unity of an object as an actor. Of course, such way of thinking or programming habit comming from the C++ or Java situation is neither bad nor good in and by itself. My point is that different presuppositions will lead to different ways of thinking or programming habits. Terribly bad design fom one point of view may not be so bad from another point of view, vice versa. We should reflect on which presupposition we are putting in evaluating something. That s all. Mops default method binding is said to be Early Binding. But it is programming-default or a kind of standard, not interpreter and/or compiler default. Mops allows plural ways of message sending. But the way of binding is always explicit in code. Mops doesn t try to force programmers to take one certain way. It simply leaves many possibility to the programmers.It may be considered bad in the world of standard programming. But if they were true, Forth itself would be bad.Additionally we never confuse normal words with messages to invoke corresponding methodsin Mops code because they obey distinguishable syntax rules. Word and selector are different entities in NEON model, so they look different in Mops code. It is natural, I think. NEON OO model is said to be based on Smalltalk model.It is true that Smalltalk is too different from Forth since it is pure OO language. But we should be able to learn from Smalltalk (or other pure OO language) a natural and straightforward OO syntax-semantics correspondence, and think about its realization in Forth. From this point of view, NEON model has a excellent mesage sending appearance in my opinion. Moreover, advantages of NEON model are more in practical aspects of programming than in theoretical ones.This achivement is surely an evidence of Forth s tremendous expressive power since whole the OO construct has been written in Forth. Or you insist we should keep Forth pure? Well, but we never lose the pure Forth by adding OO constructs. Supplying NEON OO feature will never prevent us from programming in pure Forth.It is the strength of Forth we are referring to. You may need a simplicity. But there is no THE simplicity. Simple doesn t always mean short code.Fortunately, everything is already simple in Forth -- aren t you confused by your implicit suppositions?You may say "we should wipe it hour by hour and let no dust alight".But we will reply "it is always clean so where can the dust alight?"(Zen of Forth). Appendix a defect of some of Object-Method syntax (unfinished) My argument was(is) supposing PowerMops as a typical example of NEON OO model. And I treated only standard OO syntax of PowerMops. PowerMops has some OO related features that were not mentioned above.For example PowerMops allows also object-method(+class information) syntax for binding. We can select one way according to the situation. PowerMops class can have a method whose content may be different object-wise, and, when needed, can be changed dynamically. But this feature is achived by xt-variable functionality, which is already in standard Forth.That is, PowerMops solves this problem via instance variables, not inheritance. Since standard Forth already has the solution, NEON model doesn t need additional theoretically sophisticated late binding mechanism or other OO functionality to solve it. (I don t know what OO features Win32Forth has. But I think what features PowerMops has could be implemented in Win32Forth.) This article was written as a reaction agaist the claim "message-object syntax is bad or simply wrong". So, this article doesn t contain all features of PowerMops OO. I used an OO semantics to support message-object syntax. But I am not a Dogmatiker. I never insist that this semantics is one only theoretical foundation for PowerMops OO coding.I have never imagined that every PowerMops user should first be taken by this semantics to understand the OO code in PowerMops. My intention was simply that since one simple and understandable semantics can support message-object syntax, this syntax should have some reason. So I think that a claim "message-object syntax is bad or simply wrong" was shown to be baseless. I like PowerMops OO syntax by practical reason, not by dogmatical one. I have been thinking about philosophy to support PowerMops language including pure Forth part.But the motivation comes from experience of real coding on PowerMops.I have realized PowerMops is very powerful. Moreover PowerMops, which is optimizing native Forth compiler for PowerPC with OO feature based on NEON model, is wholly written in Mops.That means, PowerMops itself is an example software of NEON type OOP. And its syntax and semantics make communication with other programmers by codequite easy.I have been trying to undestand what in PowerMops language makes it so (in my opinion) great. I found Dogmatikers tend to hate NEON OO model, or even Forth ideas.Perhaps, because those ideas doesn t fit for their dogma.It is true, theory may help to simplfy the grammar of programming language. But excessive simplification could cause practical confusion. What I call practical reason to favour PowerMops, is the fact that what we are doing is clear from the code in PowerMops. Selectors have a bit different appearance from normal words.By that, we can easily realize whether certain part of the code is written in OO or in normal Forth. In all cases of OO coding, selector supposes object near by and may be followed by class name or certain token, which are context elements used to define appropriate method. (I tend to think such a combination of words as a "phrase", which is an extension of concept ‘word’.)The context is very local. It is consumed with one selector. (Well, now PowerMops has a syntax to extend the context in a case. But the ends of the context can be made clear in code.) Locality of information for interpretation of code is important factor for readble code. I realized that in some OO Forth using object-method syntax, object and method cannot be distinguished from normal Forth word in the names.And according to object-method synax theory, object (or class name) switches the contexts.Since we cannot see whether a word is an object or a normal forth word from its name,object can be said to cause implicit context change.Introducing implicit context change in a language is a really bad idea, I believe.OO system of such type will be, sooner or later, unable to live without some naming convention,such as, Begin Object name by a capital letter, etc.. But setting conventions will be too weak to avoid all possible problems coming from implicit context change. For example aFile dup may duplicate ‘aFile’ (File duplication when dup is a mothod of file). Or ‘aFile’ may do something and ‘dup’ duplicate a stack item. How could you know which is the case from this line?If you know aFile is an object and has a method ‘dup’, the definition of dup will be found in method implementation (definitioin). But the method operating code above doesn t contain the information. That is, introducing implicit context change may break the reliability of normal forth words in the meaning of the actions when reading code(especially when debugging the code other programmers wrote). In Reality, syntactical details are trivial. Implementing some features or flavors is also trivial in Forth based environment. Anything isn t very difficult to implement in Forth environment compared with some other languages. But I think confusing syntax should be avoided, even if that might be a result of exact mapping of OO to standard Forth syntax. Surely, good programmers could avoid all such troubles by some coding conventions or goood memory.Some may say, "I have no problem with that. So it is perfect."OK. I could believe it is true for you. But how about anyone other than you? Forth should be only for good programmers?But no one is born as a good programmer, andnot every person will begin programming as a good programmer. Such an elitism might kill the language. However I myself don t care about what floavors will be adopted as the future OO standard of Forth. Once the specification becomes clear, PowerMops surely can support it by an optional library. Top Page
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CDR 001 - DEMO RECORDING SESSIONS 1962 (16 49) 1 Little Queenie (demo) 2 Beautiful Delilah (demo) 3 Down The Road Apiece (demo) 4 I Aint Got You (demo) 5 Don t Want No Woman (demo) 6 Around Around (demo) 7 Little Queenie/Beautiful Delilah/La Bamba/Wee Baby Blues (On Your Way To School)/Around Around (demo) 8 You Can t Judge A Book By Looking At The Cover (part) (demo) ■Bill Wyman s Black Box (VGP-329) includes tracks 1-4 mono ■Down The Road Apiece (Bad Wizard BW 6167) includes tracks 5-6 mono ■Reelin Rockin (VGP-274) includes track 7 mono ■Around Around (Invasion Unlimited IU9531-1) includes track 8 mono Note; Dartford, Kent, late 1961 or early 1962 (tracks 1-7), Curly Clayton Sound Studio, London, 10.27.1962 (track 8) CDR 002 - FIRST RECORDING SESSIONS 1963 (50 36) 1 Road Runner (demo) 2 Diddley Daddy (demo) 3 I Want To Be Loved (demo) 4 Baby What s Wrong (demo) 5 Bright Lights, Big City (demo) 6 Come On (7"single) 7 I Want To Be Loved (7"single) 8 Fortune Teller (saturday club) 9 Poison Ivy (long take) (saturday club) 10 Bye Bye Johnny (EP the rolling stones) 11 You Better Move On (EP the rolling stones) 12 I Wanna Be Your Man (7"single) 13 Stoned (7"single) 14 Come On (BBC) 15 Memphis, Tennessee (BBC) 16 Roll Over Beethoven (BBC) 17 Money (EP the rolling stones) 18 Poison Ivy (short take) (EP the rolling stones) 19 Go Home, Girl (outtake) 20 That s Girl Belongs To Yesterday (outtake) 21 Leave Me Alone (outtake) 22 It Should Be You (outtake) ■IBC Demos 1963 (The Swingin Pig TSP-CDS-001) includes tracks 1-5 mono ■SINGLES COLLECTION / THE LONDON YEARS (abkco 92312) includes tracks 6-7,12-13 mono ■MORE HOT ROCKS (abkco 96262) includes tracks 8-10,17-18 mono ■DECEMBER S CHILDREN (abkco 94512) includes track 11 mono ■Get Satisfaction...If You Want ! (The Swingin Pig TSP-CD-003) includes tracks 14-16 mono ■Time Trip Vol. 5 (Scorpio TT5) includes track 19-22 mono Note; IBC Studios, London, 3.11.1963 (tracks 1-5), Olympic Sound Studios, London, 5.10.1963 (tracks 6-7), Decca Studios, London, 7.9.1963 (track 8), 7.16.1963 (track 9), 8.8.1963 (tracks 10-11), Saturday Club, BBC Radio, London, 10.26.1963 (tracks 14-16), De Lane Lea Music Recording Studios, London, 10.7.1963 (tracks 12-13) 11.14.1963 (tracks 17-19), Regent Sound Studios, London, 11.20-21.1963 (tracks 20-22) CDR 003 - THE ROLLING STONES SESSIONS 1964 (40 37) 1 Not Fade Away (outtake) 2 I m A King Bee (backing track) 3 Not Fade Away (7"single) 4 Little By Little (7"single) 5 Mr. Spector Mr. Pitney Come Too (outtake) 6 Andrew s Blues (outtake) 7 Wake Up In The Morning (jingle for kellog s rise krispies) 8 Tell Me (You re Coming Back) (outtake) 9 Tell Me (You re Coming Back) (UK LP full length version) 10 Good Times, Bad Times (7"single) 11 As Time Goes By (outtake) 12 Route 66 (BBC) 13 Cops Robbers (BBC) 14 You Better Move On (BBC) 15 Mona (I Need You Baby) (BBC) 16 Don t Lie To Me (outtake) ■The Black Box CD-1 (Yellow Dog YD 046) includes tracks 1,11 mono ■Record Mirror Volume 1 / 1962-1968 (Bedrock Records) includes track 2 mono ■SINGLES COLLECTION / THE LONDON YEARS (abkco 92312) includes tracks 3-4,10 mono ■Necrophilia (VGP-317) includes tracks 5-6 mono ■The Rolling Stones No.2 (bootleg) includes track 7 mono ■Bright Lights Big City (VGP-307) includes track 8 mono ■THE ROLLING STONES (London P25L 25031) includes track 9 mono ■Comden Thatre 1964 (The Swingin Pig TSP-CDS-004) includes tracks 12-15 stereo ■METAMORPHOSIS (abkko 90062) includes track 16 stereo Note; Regent Sound Studios, London, 1.10.1964 (tracks 1-2), 1.28-29.1964 (tracks 3),2.4.1964 (Tracks 4-6), 2.24-25.1964 (tracks 8-10), 5.12.1964 (track 16), Pye Studios, London, 2.6.1964 (track 7), De Lane Lea Music Recording Studios, London, 3.11.1964 (track 11), Blues in Rhythm, BBC Radio, London, 3.19.1964 (tracks 12-15) CDR 004 - CHESS RECORDING SESSIONS 1964 (41 56) 1 It s All Over Now (stereo version) 2 I Can t Be Satisfied (stereo version) 3 Stewed Keefed (outtake) 4 Confenssin The Blues (stereo version) 5 Around Around (stereo version) 6 Look What You ve Down (stereo version) 7 Down The Road Apiece (stereo version) 8 If You Need Me (stereo version) 9 Hi-Heel Sneakers (outtake) 10 Meet Me In The Bottom (outtake) 11 Empty Heart (stereo version) 12 Tell Me Baby, How Many More Time (outtake) 13 2120 South Michigan Avenue (full length stereo version) 14 Reelin Rockin (outtake) ■12X5 (abkco 94022) includes tracks 1, 4, 5, 8,11,13 stereo ■MORE HOT ROCKS (abkco 96262) includes track 2 stereo ■The Black Box CD-1 (Yellow Dog YD 046) includes tracks 3, 9-10,12 stereo ■DECEMBER S CHILDREN (abkco 94512) includes track 6 stereo ■THE ROLLING STONES, NOW! (abkco 94202) includes track 7 stereo ■Reelin Rockin (VGP-274) includes track 14 mono Note; Chess Studios, Chicago, Illinois, 6.10.1964 (tracks 1-3), 6.11.1964 (tracks 4-14) CDR 005 - RECORDING SESSIONS FOR ANDREW OLDHAM 1964 (44 54) 1 Some Things Just Stick In Your Mind (basic track) 2 Some Things Just Stick In Your Mind (additional pedal steel guitar) 3 Try A Little Harder (basic track) 4 Try A Little Harder (additional brass backing vocals) 5 Heart Of Stone (basic track) 6 Heart Of Stone (additional pedal steel guitar) 7 Blue Turns To Grey (basic track) 8 Blue Turns To Grey (additional female backing vocals) 9 Earch Every Day Of The Year (basic track) 10 Earch Every Day Of The Year (additional female backing vocals, brass strings) 11 (Walkin Thru The) Sleepy City (basic track) 12 (Walkin Thru The) Sleepy City 13 We re Wastin Time (basic track) 14 We re Wastin Time (additional pedal steel guitar fiddle) 15 I d Much Rather Be With The Boys (basic track) 16 I d Much Rather Be With The Boys (additional backing vocals pedal steel guitar) ■The Black Box CD-1 (Yellow Dog YD 046) includes tracks 1, 3, 7,11,13 mono ■METAMORPHOSIS (abkko 90062) includes tracks 2, 4, 6,10,12,14,16 stereo ■The Allen Klein Collection / Kleins Revenge (Midnight Beat MBCD 128) includes tracks 5, 9,15 mono ■Necrophilia (VGP-317) includes track 8 stereo Note; Regent Sound Studios, London, 2.13.1964 (tracks 1, 3), 6.29-7.7.1964 (tracks 2, 4), 7.21-23.1964 (tracks 5-6), 8.31-9.4.1964 (tracks 7-14), Decca Studios, London, 2.1965 (tracks 15-16) CDR 006 - THE ROLLING STONES NO.2 SESSIONS 1964 (34 42) 1 Little Red Rooster (7"single) 2 Off The Hook (7"single) 3 Susie Q (with count version) 4 Surprise, Surprise (fourteen) 5 We Were Falling In Love (Waving Hair) (outtake) 6 Everybody Needs Somebody To Love (long take-stereo version) 7 Heart Of Stone (stereo long version) 8 Time Is On My Side (guitar intro take-stereo version) 9 What A Shame (stereo version) 10 Mercy, Mercy (outtake) 11 Good Bye Girl (outtake) 12 Key To The Highway (outtake) ■SINGLES COLLECTION / THE LONDON YEARS (abkco 92312) includes tracks 1-2 mono ■Time Trip Vol. 5 (Scorpio TT5) includes tracks 3,10-12 mono, track 7 stereo ■THE ROLLING STONES, NOW! (abkco 94202) includes track 4 mono, track 9 stereo ■Bill Wyman s Black Box (VGP-329) includes track 5 mono ■Bright Lights Big City (VGP-307) includes track 6 stereo ■HOT ROCKS 1964-1971 (abkco 96672) includes track 8 stereo Note; Regent Sound Studios, London, 9.2.1964 (tracks 1-2), 9.28-29.1964 (tracks 3-5), RCA Studios, Los Angeles, California, 11.2.1964 (tracks 6-7), Chess Studios, Chicago, Illinois, 11.8.1964 (tracks 8-12) CDR 007 - OUT OF OUR HEADS SESSIONS 1965 (42 01) 1 The Last Time (stereo version) 2 Play With Fire (stereo version) 3 The Under Assistant Westcoast Promotion Man (full length version) 4 (I Cant Get No) Satisfaction (backing track) 5 The Spider The Fly (backing track) 6 (I Cant Get No) Satisfaction (stereo version 1) 7 (I Cant Get No) Satisfaction (stereo version 2 acoustic guitar only) 8 The Spider The Fly (7"single) 9 Good Times (additional female backing vocals) 10 I ve Been Loving You Too Long (studio take) 11 Get Off Of My Cloud (stereo version) 12 The Singer Not The Song (stereo version) 13 Looking Tired (outtake) 14 As Tears Go By (7"single) ■Time Trip Vol. 5 (Scorpio TT5) includes track 1 stereo ■HOT ROCKS 1 (London 820141) includes tracks 2, 6,11 stereo ■SINGLES COLLECTION / THE LONDON YEARS (abkco 1218-2) includes track 3 mono ■The Black Box CD-1 (Yellow Dog YD 046) includes track 4 mono, track 13 stereo ■Ultra Rare Trax Vol. 9 (The Genuine Pig TGP-CD-132) includes track 5 mono ■HOT ROCKS 1964-1971 (abkco 96672) includes track 7 stereo ■SINGLES COLLECTION / THE LONDON YEARS (abkco 92312) includes tracks 8,14 mono ■Necrophilia (VGP-317) includes track 9 stereo ■MORE HOT ROCKS (abkco 96262) includes track 10 stereo ■Bright Lights Big City (VGP-307) includes track 12 stereo Note; RCA Studios, Los Angeles, California, 1.17-18, 2.17.1965 (track 1), 1.17-18.1965 (track 2),5.11-12.1965 (tracks 4-10), 9.5.1965 (tracks 11-12), 9.6.1965 (track 13), Chess Studios, Chicago, Illinois, 5.10.1965 (track 3), IBC Studios, London, 10.26.1965 (track 14) CDR 008 - AFTERMATH SESSIONS 1966 (57 48) 1 19th Nervous Breakdown (outtake) 2 19th Nervous Breakdown (stereo version) 3 Sad Day (US 7"single) 4 Mother Little Helper (backing track) 5 Paint It, Black (edited backing track) 6 Paint It, Black (stereo version-different mix) 7 Paint It, Black (full length version) 8 Long Long While (7"single) 9 Lady Jane (backing track) 10 Out Of Time (backing track) 11 If You Let Me (outtake) 12 Con Le Mie Lacrime (without harpsichord version) 13 Con Le Mie Lacrime (Italia 7"single) 14 Out Of Time (outtake) 15 Have You Seen Your Mother, Baby, Standing In The Shadow ? (backing track) 16 Have You Seen Your Mother, Baby, Standing In The Shadow ? (outtake) 17 Have You Seen Your Mother, Baby, Standing In The Shadow ? (stereo version) 18 Who s Driving Your Plane (7"single) ■Time Trip Vol. 5 (Scorpio TT5) includes tracks 1-2, 6 stereo, tracks 5, 9,12,15,17 mono ■SINGLES COLLECTION / THE LONDON YEARS (abkco 92312) includes tracks 3, 7-8,18 mono ■Time Trip disc 3 (DAC-063) includes track 4 mono ■Masons Yard To Primrose Hill (VGP-112) includes track 10 mono ■METAMORPHOSIS (abkko 90062) includes tracks 11,14 stereo ■The Black Box Bonus CD (Yellow Dog YD 2000) includes track 13 mono ■The Black Box CD-1 (Yellow Dog YD 046) includes track 16 mono Note; RCA Studios, Los Angeles, California, 12.3-8.1965 (tracks 1-4), 3.6-9.1966 (tracks 5-11), 8.3-11.1966 (track 18), IBC Studios, London, 3.15.1966 (tracks 12-13), 8,31-9.2.1966 (tracks 15-17), Pye Studios, London, 4.27-30.1966 (track 14) CDR 009 - BETWEEN THE BUTTONS SESSIONS 1966 (52 42) 1 Yesterday s Papers (outtake) 2 Yesterday s Papers (baking track) 3 My Obsession (baking track) 4 All Sold Out (baking track) 5 Please Go Home (baking track) 6 Complicated (baking track) 7 Let s Spend The Night Together (baking track) 8 Get Yourself Together (Can t Believe / I Can See It) (outtake take 1) 9 Let s Spend The Night Together (baking track with chorus) 10 Ruby Tuesday (baking track) 11 Let s Spend The Night Together (stereo version) 12 Ruby Tuesday (stereo version) 13 Dandelion (outtake) 14 Get Yourself Together (Can t Believe / I Can See It) (ourtake 2-backing track) 15 Get Yourself Together (Can t Believe / I Can See It) (outtake 2) 16 Trouble In Mind (outtake) ■Time Trip disc 4 (DAC-063) includes tracks 1,13 mono, track 8 stereo ■The Black Box CD-2 (Yellow Dog YD 047) includes tracks 2-6,14 stereo, tracks 7,10 mono ■The Black Box CD-1 (Yellow Dog YD 046) includes track 9 mono ■THROUGH THE PAST, DARKLY (abkco 90032) includes tracks 11-12 stereo ■Accidents Will Happen (VGP-370) includes track 15 mono ■Hot Stuff Volume Two (Great Dane Records GDR 9417/ABCD) includes track 16 mono Note; RCA Studios, Los Angeles, California, 8.3-11.1966 (tracks 1-8), Olympic Sound Studios, London, 11.8-26.1966 (tracks 9-16) CDR 010 - THEIR SATANIC MAJESTIES REQUEST SESSIONS 1967 DISC 1 (19 33) 1 We Love You (7"single) 2 Dandelion (7"single) 3 We Love You (stereo version) 4 Dandelion (stereo version) 5 We Love You (rehearsal) ■SINGLES COLLECTION / THE LONDON YEARS (abkco 92312) includes tracks 1-2 mono ■MORE HOT ROCKS (abkco 96262) includes track 3 stereo ■THROUGH THE PAST, DARKLY (abkco 90032) includes track 4 stereo ■Time Trip disc 4 (DAC-063) includes track 5 stereo Note; Olympic Sound Studios, London, 6.12-13 21.1967 (tracks 2, 4-5), 7.2-22.1967 (tracks 1, 3) CDR 011 - THEIR SATANIC MAJESTIES REQUEST SESSIONS 1967 DISC 2 (57 49) 1 2000 Light Years From Home (rehearsal) 2 2000 Light Years From Home (take 1) 3 2000 Light Years From Home (takes 2-4) 4 2000 Light Years From Home (takes 5-6) 5 2000 Light Years From Home (takes 7-10) 6 2000 Light Years From Home (take 11) 7 2000 Light Years From Home (takes 12-13) 8 2000 Light Years From Home (takes 14-15) 9 2000 Light Years From Home (retakes 3-4) 10 5 Part Jam Part 1 (takes 1-2) 11 5 Part Jam Part 1 (takes 3-5) 12 5 Part Jam Part 5 (takes 1-3) 13 5 Part Jam Part 4 (takes 1-10) 14 5 Part Jam Part 4 (takes 11-15) 15 5 Part Jam Part 3 (takes 1-5) 16 5 Part Jam Part 2 (takes 1-5) ■Satanic Sessions Volume One disc 1 (Midnight Beat MB CD 120) includes tracks 1-16 stereo Note; Olympic Sound Studios, London, May-October 1967 (tracks 1-16) CDR 012 - THEIR SATANIC MAJESTIES REQUEST SESSIONS 1967 DISC 3 (60 32) 1 We Love You (takes 15-16) 2 We Love You (takes 17-19) 3 She s A Rainbow (takes 1-2) 4 She s A Rainbow (takes 3-7) 5 Citadel (takes 20-24) 6 Citadel (takes 25-31) 7 Citadel (takes 32-33) 8 Citadel (take 34) 9 Citadel (take with piano overdub) 10 In Another Land (takes 1-3) 11 In Another Land (takes 4-8) 12 In Another Land (take 9) 13 Child Of The Moon (take 10) ■Satanic Sessions Volume One disc 2 (Midnight Beat MB CD 121) includes tracks 1-13 stereo Note; Olympic Sound Studios, London, May-October 1967 (tracks 1-13) CDR 013 - THEIR SATANIC MAJESTIES REQUEST SESSIONS 1967 DISC 4 (60 23) 1 Child Of The Moon (takes 11-12) 2 Sing This All Together (take 7) 3 Sing This All Together (intro) 4 The Lantern (take 1) 5 The Lantern (takes 2-3) 6 The Lantern (takes 4-5) 7 The Lantern (take 10) 8 The Lantern (take 11) 9 The Lantern (take 14) 10 The Lantern (take 15-17) 11 The Lantern (retakes 1-3) 12 On With The Show (takes 1-3) 13 On With The Show (takes 4-6) 14 On With The Show (takes 7-10) ■Satanic Sessions Volume One disc 3 (Midnight Beat MB CD 122) includes tracks 1-14 stereo Note; Olympic Sound Studios, London, May-October 1967 (tracks 1-14) CDR 014 - THEIR SATANIC MAJESTIES REQUEST SESSIONS 1967 DISC 5 (58 09) 1 On With The Show (take 11) 2 On With The Show (takes 12+14) 3 In Another Land (chorus part, takes 1-2) 4 In Another Land (chorus part, takes 3-4) 5 In Another Land (chorus part, takes 5-14) 6 Majesties Honky Tonk (takes 1-2) 7 Majesties Honky Tonk (take 3) 8 Majesties Honky Tonk (takes 4-9) 9 Majesties Honky Tonk (takes 10) 10 Majesties Honky Tonk (takes 11-12) 11 Majesties Honky Tonk (takes 15-17) 12 Jam One (takes 1-7) 13 Jam One (takes 8-9) 14 Jam One (takes 10-15) 15 Title 15 (takes 1-3) 16 Title 15 (take 4) 17 Title 15 (takes 5) ■Satanic Sessions Volume One disc 4 (Midnight Beat MB CD 123) includes tracks 1-17 stereo Note; Olympic Sound Studios, London, May-October 1967 (tracks 1-17) CDR 015 - THEIR SATANIC MAJESTIES REQUEST SESSIONS 1967 DISC 6 (49 16) 1 Title 15 (takes 6) 2 Title 15 (takes 7) 3 Gomper (take 1) 4 Gomper (take 2) 5 Gomper (take 3) 6 Gomper (take 4) 7 Gomper (take 5) 8 Gomper (part 1, take 1) 9 Gomper (part 1, take 2) 10 Soul Blues (take 1) 11 Soul Blues (take 2) 12 Soul Blues (take 3) 13 2000 Man (takes 1-2) 14 2000 Man (take 3) 15 2000 Man (takes 4-5) ■Satanic Sessions Volume Two disc 1 (Midnight Beat MB CD 124) includes tracks 1-15 stereo Note; Olympic Sound Studios, London, May-October 1967 (tracks 1-15) CDR 016 - THEIR SATANIC MAJESTIES REQUEST SESSIONS 1967 DISC 7 (47 45) 1 2000 Man (take 6) 2 2000 Man (takes 7-8) 3 2000 Man (takes 9-11) 4 2000 Man (takes 13-15) 5 2000 Man (end part, takes 1-3) 6 2000 Man (intro, takes 1-2) 7 2000 Man (intro, takes 3-14) 8 Guitar/Organ Jam (similar to She Smiled Sweetly) 9 Blues 3 (takes 27-31) 10 Blues 3 (takes 32-39) 11 Blues 3 (takes 40-44) 12 Blues 3 (retakes 1-2) 13 Blues 3 (retake 3) 14 Blues 3 (retakes 4-5) ■Satanic Sessions Volume Two disc 2 (Midnight Beat MB CD 125) includes tracks 1-14 stereo Note; Olympic Sound Studios, London, May-October 1967 (tracks 1-14) CDR 017 - THEIR SATANIC MAJESTIES REQUEST SESSIONS 1967 DISC 8 (47 24) 1 Gold Painted Fingernails (take 1) 2 Gold Painted Fingernails (take 2) 3 Gold Painted Fingernails (takes 3-4) 4 Gold Painted Fingernails (takes 5-9) 5 Gold Painted Fingernails (takes 10-11) 6 Gold Painted Fingernails (take 12) 7 Gold Painted Fingernails (takes 13-16) 8 Gold Painted Fingernails (take 17) 9 Gold Painted Fingernails (takes 18-22) 10 Gold Painted Fingernails (take 23) 11 2000 Man (middle part, takes 2-3) 12 2000 Man (middle part, takes 4-6) 13 2000 Man (middle part, takes 7-10) 14 2000 Man (middle part, takes 11-12) 15 2000 Man (middle part, take 13) ■Satanic Sessions Volume Two disc 3 (Midnight Beat MB CD 126) includes tracks 1-15 stereo Note; Olympic Sound Studios, London, May-October 1967 (tracks 1-15) CDR 018 - BEGGARS BANQUET SESSIONS 1968 DISC 1 (43 35) 1 Rock Me Baby (rehearsal) 2 Stray Cat Blues (rehearsal) 3 Untitled (rehearsal) 4 Hold On, I m Comin (rehearsal) 5 Jumpin Jack Flash (rehearsal) 6 Untitled (rehearsal) 7 Some Satisfaction (rehearsal) 8 Rock Me Baby (rehearsal) 9 I ll Coming Home (rehearsal) 10 Untitled (rehearsal) 11 Conversations ■Surrey Rehearsals 1968 (VGP-108) includes tracks 1-11 mono Note; R.G. Jones Studios, Morden, Surrey, 2.21.1968 (tracks 1-11) CDR 019 - BEGGARS BANQUET SESSIONS 1968 DISC 2 (53 41) 1 Jig-Saw Puzzle (take 1) 2 Jig-Saw Puzzle (take 2) 3 Jig-Saw Puzzle (takes 3-5) 4 Jig-Saw Puzzle (take 6) 5 Jig-Saw Puzzle (takes 7-8) 6 Jig-Saw Puzzle (take 9) 7 Jig-Saw Puzzle (take 10) 8 Jig-Saw Puzzle (take 11) 9 Jig-Saw Puzzle (take 12) 10 Jig-Saw Puzzle (take 13) 11 Jig-Saw Puzzle (take 14) ■Satanic Sessions Volume Two disc 4 (Midnight Beat MB CD 127) includes tracks 1-11 stereo Note; Olympic Sound Studios, London, 3.17-4.3.1968 (tracks 1-11) CDR 020 - BEGGARS BANQUET SESSIONS 1968 DISC 3 (70 36) 1 Jumpin Jack Flash (backing track) 2 Child Of The Moon (backing track) 3 Jumpin Jack Flash (stereo version) 4 Child Of The Moon (stereo version) 5 Parachute Woman (early mix) 6 Stray Cat Blues (outtake) 7 Did Everybody Pay This Dues ? (outtake) 8 Street Fighting Man (US 7"single-mono different vocals version) 9 No Expectations (outtake) 10 Dear Doctor (outtake) 11 Dear Doctor (early mix) 12 Prodigal Son (stereo version) 13 Factory Girl (outtake) 14 Sister Morphine (outtake) 15 Hamburger To Go (Stuck Out All Alone) (outtake) 16 Blood Red Wine (outtake) 17 Family (outtake-electric version) 18 Still A Fool (outtake) ■Time Trip disc 4 (DAC-063) includes tracks 1-2 mono, tracks 9-10,14 stereo ■THROUGH THE PAST, DARKLY (abkco 90032) includes track 3 stereo ■SINGLES COLLECTION / THE LONDON YEARS (abkco 1218-2) includes track 4 stereo ■R.S.V.P. (Cool Blokes Production) includes tracks 5-6,11-13 stereo ■Necrophilia (VGP-317) includes track 7 stereo ■SINGLES COLLECTION / THE LONDON YEARS (abkco 92312) includes track 8 mono ■The Trident Mixes (DAC-052) includes tracks 15-18 stereo Note; Olympic Sound Studios, London, 3.17-4.3.1968 (tracks 2, 4-7), 4.20.1968 (tracks 1, 3), 5.13-23.1968 (tracks 8-18) Note; track 11 (R.S.V.P. track 17) CDR 021 - BEGGARS BANQUET SESSIONS 1968 DISC 4 (62 22) 1 Sympathy For The Devil (early takes part 1 from one plus one ) 2 Sympathy For The Devil (early takes part 2 from one plus one ) 3 Sympathy For The Devil (early takes part 3 from one plus one ) 4 Sympathy For The Devil (early takes part 4 from one plus one ) 5 Sympathy For The Devil (early takes part 5 from one plus one ) 6 Sympathy For The Devil (early takes part 6 from one plus one ) 7 Sympathy For The Devil (early takes part 7 from one plus one ) 8 Sympathy For The Devil (early takes part 8 from one plus one ) 9 Sympathy For The Devil (early takes part 9 from one plus one ) 10 Sympathy For The Devil (early takes part 10 from one plus one ) 11 Sympathy For The Devil (edited 3rd strophe) 12 Sympathy For The Devil (beggars banquet) 13 Jam (London Jam) (part 1 from one plus one ) 14 Jam (London Jam) (part 2 from one plus one ) 15 Family (acoustic version) 16 Family (with additional bass guitar percussions) ■Political Cartoons (JJ Records) includes tracks 1-10,13-14 mono ■R.S.V.P. (Cool Blokes Production) includes track 11 stereo ■BEGGARS BANQUET (London 800 084-2) includes track 12 stereo ■The Trident Mixes (DAC-052) includes track 15 stereo ■METAMORPHOSIS (abkko 90062) includes track 16 stereo Note; Olympic Sound Studios, London, 6.4-10.1968 (tracks 1-14), 6.28.1968 (tracks 15-16) CDR 022 - LET IT BLEED SESSIONS 1969 DISC 1 (42 17) 1 Honky Tonk Women (outtake) 2 You Can t Always Get What You Want (edited stereo version) 3 Gimme Shelter (outtake) 4 Gimme Shelter (different vocals version 1) 5 Gimme Shelter (different vocals version 2) 6 You Got The Silver (Mick Jagger on lead vocals version) 7 Sister Morphine (different mix) 8 I Was Just A Country Boy (outtake) 9 Downtown Suzie (Lily Street Lucie) (basic track) 10 Downtown Suzie (Lily Street Lucie) (remixed version) ■The Black Box CD-3 (Yellow Dog YD 048) includes tracks 1, 3 stereo ■SINGLES COLLECTION / THE LONDON YEARS (abkco 1218-2) includes track 2 stereo ■Time Trip disc 1 (DAC-063) includes tracks 4, 6 stereo ■Time Trip disc 4 (DAC-063) includes track 5 stereo ■Sotheby s Reel 1969-1970 (Idol Mind Production IMP-N-013) includes track 7 stereo ■The Trident Mixes (DAC-052) includes tracks 8-9 stereo ■METAMORPHOSIS (abkko 90062) includes track 10 stereo Note; Olympic Sound Studios, London, 2.10-3.31.1969 (tracks 1-8), 4.23.1969 (tracks 9-10) CDR 023 - LET IT BLEED SESSIONS 1969 DISC 2 (46 54) 1 Honky Tonk Women (basic track) 2 Honky Tonk Women (stereo version) 3 Country Honk (basic track) 4 Loving Cup (outtake) 5 Jiving Sister Fanny (take 1) 6 Jiving Sister Fanny (take 2) 7 I Don t Know Why (basic track) 8 I Don t Know Why (remixed version) 9 All Down The Line (outtake-acoustic version) 10 I m Going Down (basic track) 11 Hillside Blues (I Don t Know The Reason Why) (outtake) ■Olympic Years 1967-69 (Dandelion 94003) includes track 1 mono ■SINGLES COLLECTION / THE LONDON YEARS (abkco 92312) includes track 2 stereo ■The Black Box CD-3 (Yellow Dog YD 048) includes track 3 mono, track 9 stereo ■Sotheby s Reel 1969-1970 (Idol Mind Production IMP-N-013) includes track 4 stereo ■The Trident Mixes (DAC-052) includes tracks 5, 7, 10 stereo ■METAMORPHOSIS (abkko 90062) includes tracks 6, 8 stereo ■Hillside Blues (VGP-214) includes track 11 stereo Note; Olympic Sound Studios, London, 4.17-7.2.1969 (tracks 1-8), Sunset Sound Studios Elektra Studios, Los Angeles, California, 10.17-11.2.1969 (tracks 9-11) NEXT
https://w.atwiki.jp/fcplastico/pages/35.html
The 100 Greatest Games of All Times? - BigSoccer 100 REAL MADRID 0-2 AJAX AMSTERDAM 22 November 1995, Estadio Santiago Bernabeu, Madrid, Champions League, preliminary round Real coach Jorge Valdano after the game “Ajax is not only the team of the 1990s, they are approaching football utopia.” 99 BLACKPOOL 4-3 BOLTON WANDERERS 2 May 1953, Wembley stadium, London, F.A. Cup final The legendary “Matthews final”. 98 FRANCE 1-1 (5-4 pens) BRAZIL 21 June 1998, Estadio Jalisco, Guadalajara, World Cup quarterfinal The duel of the magic midfields. 97 PARIS ST. GERMAIN 4-1 REAL MADRID 18 March 1993, Parc des Princes, Paris, UEFA-Cup quarterfinal, second leg Paris had lost the first leg 1-3. Frenetically supported by 45,000, Paris led 3-0 until the very last minutewhen Ivan Zamorano scored Real’s supposedly saving goal. But injury time lasted six minutes, enough time for Kamboure to score PSG’s decisive fourth goal. 96 EMPOR ROSTOCK 1-3 VORWA"RTS BERLIN 19 June 1962, Ostseestadion, Rostock, East German Oberliga, matchday 33 The play-off game that decided the East German championship. Berlin’s forward Ju"rgen Noldner before the game predicted that he would score in the 15th and the 75th minute. He then managed to score in the 12th and the 72nd … 95 FC BARCELONA 3-2 FC VALENCIA 17 June 2001, Camp Nou, Barcelona, Primera Division, matchday 38 Rivaldo’s greatest game. 94 GERMANY 16 RUSSIA 0 1 July 1912, Rasunda Stadion, Stockholm, Olympic Football Legend has it that the Czar refused to pay the players’ travel expenses. 93 SPAIN 9-0 AUSTRIA 27 March 1999, Estadio Mestalla, Valencia, European Championship qualifier Spain was under pressure after having lost to Cyprus previously. Then came this game against 1998 World Cup participant Austria. 92 WEST HAM UNITED 0-5 HAKOAH VIENNA 3 September 1923, Upton Park, London, friendly Hakoah became the first continental club side to beat an English side on their own turf. And they did it in style, similar to the Magic Magyars 30 years later. After the game, Walther Bensemann, chief editor of Germany’s “kicker” magazine stated that “the supremacy of English football is beat.” 91 WEST GERMANY 3-2 HOLLAND 14 June 1980, Stadio San Paolo, Naples, European Championship preliminary round Klaus Allofs scored all three West German goals, 20-year-old Bernd Schuster impressed as central midfielder. One of Germany’s best ever performances in a Euro game, being up 3-0 with well-versed attacking football before the Dutch scored two late consolidation goals. 90 KARLSRUHE SC 3 BORUSSIA DORTMUND 3 27 November 1993, Wildparkstadion, Karlsruhe, Bundesliga, matchday 18 After 19 minutes, Dortmund was up 3-0. Then came the best 15 minutes in the history of Russian dribble wizard Sergey Kiryakov, scoring three goals between the 30th and the 45th minute. Probably disgruntled because he failed to score a fourth goal in the second half, Kiryakov crowned his greatest game with a sent-off 15 minutes before time. 89 AUSTRALIA 31-0 AMERICAN SAMOA 11 April 2001, International Sports stadium, Coffs Harbour, World Cup qualifier Archie Thompson set a new record for goals scored in an international game 13. 88 FRANCE 2-1 a.e.t. PORTUGAL 28 June 2000, Stade Roi Baudoin, Brussels, European Championship, semi final Picked because of the tumultuous brawl near the end of the game after referee Benko" gave a penalty for France in extra-time, which were only interrupted by Zidane’s Golden Goal. 87 DENMARK 5-0 YUGOSLAVIA 16 June 1984, Stade de Gerland, Lyon, European Championship, Preliminary round Denmark’s coach Sepp Piontek’s order before the game “Play offensively”. They did just that, which So"ren Lerby as conductor in midfield and Michael Laudrup and Preben Elkjaer-Larsen in attack. Piontek after the game “That we would be that strong I would not have hoped for in my dreams.” 86 INTERNAZIONALE 3-2 AC MILAN 11 December 2005, Stadio Giuseppe Meazza, Milan, Serie A, Matchday 15 Adriano scored Inter’s winner in the 92nd minute with a massive shot, ending one of the best games between these city rivals in recent years. 85 FORTUNA DU"SSELDORF 6-5 BAYERN MUNICH 7 June 1975, Rheinstadion, Du"sseldorf, Bundesliga, matchday 33 Gerd Mu"ller scored three goals between the 38th and 42nd minute, giving Bayern a half-time lead of 4-2 … 84 ARGENTINA 1-1 (6-5 pens) ENGLAND 30 June 1998, Stade Geoffrey-Guichard, St. Etienne, World Cup second round One of the best World Cup games of the 1990s. 83 HAMBURG SV 4-4 JUVENTUS 13 September 2000, Volksparkstadion, Hamburg, Champions League, preliminary round HSV were trailing 1-3 in their newly modernized arena eight minutes before the final whistle. But then the hosts scored three goals, one of them a penalty by goalkeeper Jo"rg Butt, but then Inzaghi scored his third goal seconds before time, securing Juve a point. A Hamburg newspaper wrote the next day “A football game changes the city.” 82 BORUSSIA MO"NCHENGLADBACH 2-8 BAYER LEVERKUSEN 30 October 1998, Bo"kelberg Stadion, Mo"nchengladbach, Bundesliga, matchday 10 Well. 81 BAYER UERDINGEN 2-1 BAYERN MUNICH 26 May 1985, Olympiastadion, Berlin, German Cup final Underdog Uerdingen beat big favorites Bayern in the German Cup final. 80 BAYERN MUNICH 1-1 a.e.t. ATLETICO MADRID 15 May 1974, Heysel stadium, Brussels, European Cup final, first game Bayern’s unlikely hero was center back Hans-Georg ‘Katsche’ Schwarzenbeck who scored the last-second equalizer in the 120th minute with a long range effort. Bayern won the replay two days later 4-0. Schwarzenbeck’s goal was arguably the most important in the history of the club. 80 BAYERN MUNICH 1-1 a.e.t. ATLETICO MADRID 15 May 1974, Heysel stadium, Brussels, European Cup final, first game Bayern’s unlikely hero was center back Hans-Georg ‘Katsche’ Schwarzenbeck who scored the last-second equalizer in the 120th minute with a long range effort. Bayern won the replay two days later 4-0. Schwarzenbeck’s goal was arguably the most important in the history of the club. 79 BAYER LEVERKUSEN 1-2 VfB STUTTGART 16 May 1992, Ulrich-Haberland Stadion, Leverkusen, Bundesliga, matchday 38 The game that decided the Bundesliga championship that year. 78 ENGLAND 1-1 (6-7 pens) GERMANY 25 June 1996, Wembley stadium, London, European Championship semi final Simply one of the best and most exciting games of the 1990s. 77 YUGOSLAVIA 2-4 WEST GERMANY 17 June 1976, Crvena Zvezda, Belgrade, European Championship semi final The Yugoslavs were already up 2-0 against the reigning World Champs but then the Germans started one of their most brilliant comebacks. Debutant Dieter Mu"ller was subbed in seven minutes before the end of regular time and then scored the equalizer 20 seconds later. He went on to score two further goals in extra-time. 76 MEIDERICHER SV 4-3 1. FC KAISERSLAUTERN 18 May 1966, Wedaustadion, Duisburg, German Cup semi final I’m sure this was a pretty good and entertaining game, but among the 100 greatest ever games? Probably not. 75 SPAIN 2-1 SOVIET UNION 21 June 1964, Estadio Santiago Bernabeu, Madrid, European Cup of Nations final The 124,000 that came to watch this game celebrated as if they knew that this would remain Spain’s only international triumph … 74 JUVENTUS 2-2 ROMA 6 May 2001, Stadio delle Alpi, Turin, Serie A, matchday 29 Juve desperately needed a win to keep their chances of winning the scudetto alive. First it all went according to plan with Zidane and del Piero assuring a 2-0 lead, but then Nakata scored for Roma and soon afterwards, in the 90th minute, Montella equalized. Roma were champions. 73 DYNAMO DRESDEN 3-2 LOKOMOTIVE LEIPZIG 28 May 1977, Stadion der Weltjugend, Berlin, East German Cup final Apparently an awesome game. First time I heard about it. 72 ARMINIA BIELEFELD 3-2 TSV 1860 MUNICH 9 May 1981, Alm, Bielefeld, Bundesliga matchday 30 The game that saved Bielefeld from relegation that season. They were down 1-2 at home two minutes before time against direct relegation rivals 1860 Munich, but then scored twice turning the stadium into a madhouse. 71 ROMANIA 3-1 COLOMBIA 19 June 1994, Rose Bowl, Pasadena, World Cup group stage Hagi scored his wonderful goal in this game and finally proved to the world why people were calling him ‘Carpatian Maradona’ back home. 70 FC ST. PAULI 4-3 (a.e.t.) HERTHA BSC 21 December 2005, Millerntor, Hamburg, German Cup, round of last 16 Fairytale games like this show us why we love football. When Pauli scored the lead for the first time in the 109th minute, the old Millerntor stadium trembled so much that the tv cameras almost fell off the roof. 69 VASCO DA GAMA 1-2 SANTOS FC 19 November 1969, Estadio Journalista Mario Filho (a.k.a. Maracana), Rio de Janeiro, Taca de Prata This was the game in which Pele scored his 1,000th goal. Additionally to the historic importance, this was also a pretty good game. 68 ATLETICO MADRID 6-6 ATHLETIC BILBAO 29 January 1950, Estadio del Metropolitano, Madrid, Primera Division, matchday 18 Before Alfredo di Ste fano wrote history for Real Madrid, Moroccan Ben Barek wrote history as the first ‘modern’ playmaker. Barek assisted all six of Atletico’s goals in this classic encounter. 67 NIGERIA 3-2 ARGENTINA 3 August 1996, Sanford stadium, Athens (Georgia), Olympic final The 1996 Olympic tournament is often overlooked, but it was the first major trophy won by an African side. Already the semi final between the “Super Eagles” and Brazil was a hell of a game (4-3). 66 VfB EPPINGEN 2-1 HAMBURG SV 26 October 1974, Kraichgaustadion, Eppingen, German Cup, second round Amateur side beats professional side. Still one of the biggest upsets in German Cup history. 65 BAYERN MUNICH 3-3 VfB STUTTGART 15 November 1988, Olympiastadion, Munich, Bundesliga, matchday 14 Stuttgart was up 3-1 two minutes before time, but Bayern managed to score twice in the last 120 seconds. Neat game. 64 AS MONACO 8-3 DEPORTIVO LA CORUNA 5 November 2003, Stade de Louis II, Monaco, Champions League, preliminary round Deportivo president Augusto Lendoiro only twice attended games of his club in Europe the first time it was a 1-5 debacle at Arsenal, the second this game. Dado Prso scored four goals and it took FC Porto to stop Monaco with Rothen and Giuly in the CL final. 63 HANNOVER 96 5-1 1. FC KAISERSLAUTERN 23 May 1954, Volksparkstadion, Hamburg, German Championship final Only a month before the World Cup final, almost half of the German national team that would beat the Magic Magyars in Bern suffered a historic defeat when they lost 1-5 to unfancied Hannover in the final of the German championship. The Hamburg spectators abused German national team manager Sepp Herberger’s name during the second half, as he was loyal to the five Kaiserslautern players that had so utterly disappointed in this important game (the Walter brothers, Eckel, Liebrich and Kohlmeyer)… 62 VfL BOCHUM 5-6 BAYERN MUNICH 18 September 1976, Ruhrstadion, Bochum, Bundesliga, matchday 6 Lowly-ranked Bochum were up 3-0 at half-time and 4-0 shortly after the break against the reigning European champios Bayern Munich. Then came one of the most stunning comebacks ever, as Bayern scored five goals within 20 minutes, turning the score around. Bochum managed to equalize once more but in the last minute of the game Uli Hoeness scored the decisive 6th goal for Bayern. A more detailed review of that game can be found here. 61 AC MILAN 3-4 FC SAARBRU"CKEN 1 November 1955, Stadio San Siro, Milan, European Cup, first round, first leg Still one of the most sensational results in European Cup history. Saabru"cken from tiny Saarland (then still independent from Germany) with their non-professional players beat the might mighty AC Milan (Schiaffino, Nordahl etc.) at their own ground. More about that game can be read here. 60 BRAZIL 1-1 (4-2 pens) HOLLAND 7 July 1998, Stade Velodrome, Marseille, World Cup semi final Sometimes there are games that did deserve two winners. 120 minutes on the highest level, the crucial factor proved to be Taffarel’s great performance in the Brazil goal and the Dutchmen’s fear of the penalty kick. 59 YUGOSLAVIA 3-4 SPAIN 21 June 2000, Jan-Breydel-Stadion, Bruges, European Championship, group stage A fine win for Spain, who were down 2-3 in the 90th minute but then scored twice in unjury time (which lasted five minutes), equalizing in the 91th minute with the help of a penalty and then scoring the 4-3 in the 95th minute (Alfonso). 58 HAMBURG SV 1-1 BAYERN MUNICH 19 May 2001, AOL-Arena, Hamburg, Bundesliga, matchday 34 You can read what this game was about here. 57 STAHL THALE 4-0 TURBINE ERFURT 3 September 1950, Walter-Ulbricht-Stadion, Berlin, East German Cup final Stahl Thale was a small village club who lone participation in the final was already a sensation. That they went on to beat first division side Erfurt by that result was of course a mega sensation. 56 REAL MADRID 0-3 FC BARCELONA 19 November 2005, Estadio Bernabeu, Madrid, Primera Division, matchday 12 Barca’s triumph in the lion’s den. Not so long ago. 55 DENMARK 2-2 (5-4 pens) HOLLAND 22 June 1992, Nya Ullevi, Gothenburg, European Championship semi final Euro 1992’s most dramatic game with the unfancied Danes eliminating a very good Dutch side. 54 NAPOLI 2-3 MILAN 1 May 1988, Stadio Sao Paolo, Naples, Serie A, matchday 28 One of the most important domestic games in European football history. The great Milan side that would dominate Europe in the following years based its international glory on the Scudetto they won in the last minute after having trailed ruling champs Napoli for most of the season. This game three days before the end of the season was the turning point. Maradona scored with a wonderful free-kick from 15 yards. Milan would have to wait four years before winning the Scudetto again. 53 EINTRACHT FRANKFURT 6-3 SSV REUTLINGEN 25 May 2003, Waldstadion, Frankfurt, Bundesliga II, matchday 34 Last day of the season in the second division. Frankfurt was topping the league one point in front of local rivals Mainz 05. After 60 minutes it all seemed over for Frankfurt as Mainz was up 4-0 in Brunswick, while Eintracht had just conceded the 3-3 equalizer against Reutlingen. But then Frankfurt managed to score three times, sealing promotion in the last minute. 52 BAYERN MUNICH 5-1 FC SCHALKE 04 28 June 1972, Olympiastadion, Munich, Bundesliga, matchday 34 Bayern’s first ever game in the Olympic stadium. 80,000 travelled to see league leaders Bayern take on second-placed Schalke, one point was separating both sides. You can read detailed account of this game here. 51 WEST GERMANY 2-1 HOLLAND 7 July 1974, Olympiastadion, Munich, World Cup final The legendary 1974 World Cup final 50 1. FC KAISERSLAUTERN 3-1 FC BARCELONA 6 November 1991, Fritz-Walter-Stadion, Kaiserslautern, Champions League, second round, second leg This was a brilliant but bitter game by Kaiserslautern. They had lost the first leg 0-2 but were up 3-0 20 seconds before time, at the verge of eliminating huge favorites Barcelona after a really brilliant performance. But then Jose Bakero scored virtually in the last second. Barca later went on to win the Cup. 49 FRANCE 5-0 BELGIUM 16 June 1984, Stade de la Beaujoire, Nantes, European Championship, group stage “Who is going to stop these Frenchmen?” was the headline of German football magazine Kicker the day after this magnificent game by Euro 84 hosts France and their brilliant captain Michel Platini. The congenial midfield duo Platini/Giresse scored four of the five goals. Platini after the game “We are stronger than in 82.” They sure were. 48 VfL WOLFSBURG 5-4 MAINZ 05 11 June 1997, Stadion am Elsterweg, Wolfsburg, Bundesliga II, matchday 34 Another second division promotion thriller, this time a battle between two direct competitors. 47 PORTUGAL 5-3 NORTH KOREA 23 July 1966, Goodison Park, Liverpool, World Cup quarterfinal They don’t make games like this anymore. Watch the goals here. 46 ENGLAND 3-2 CAMEROON 1 July 1990, Stadio San Paolo, Naples, World Cup quarterfinal Classic World Cup encounter between established European force and aspiring newcomer from Africa. 45 ARSENAL 1-2 MANCHESTER UNITED 14 April 1999, Villa Park, Birmingham, F.A. Cup semi final Apparently a great game. 44 REAL MADRID 0-5 FC BARCELONA 17 February 1974, Estadio Bernabeu, Primera Divison, matchday 22 One of the most memorable games in the history of Spanish league football. This “magic Sunday” is still well-remembered in the club annals of Barcelona and claimed to symbolize the breakdown of Franco’s absolutistic dictatorship. 43 BAYERN MUNICH 4-2 FC NUREMBERG 1 May 1982, Waldstadion, Frankfurt, German Cup final Bayern were trailing Bavarian rivals Nuremberg 0-2 at half-time but then staged a great comeback to win 4-2. The picture of bloody Dieter Hoeness at the start of this thread is taken from this game. 42 KARLSRUHE SC 7-0 FC VALENCIA 2 November 1993, Wildparkstadionm Karlsruhe, UEFA-Cup, second round, second leg Excuse me, but this was really an awesome game. 41 IVORY COAST 0-0 (11-10 pens) GHANA 6 January 1992, Stade de L’Amitie , Dakar, African Cup, final The mad penalty shoot-out alone makes this a worthy entry. 40 BORUSSIA MO"NCHENGLADBACH 12-0 BORUSSIA DORTMUND 29 April 1978, Rheinstadion, Du"sseldorf, Bundesliga, matchday 34 39 WEST GERMANY 2-1 HOLLAND 25 June 1990, Stadio Giuseppe Meazza, Milano, World Cup, round of last 16 …or was it Inter vs. AC? When the two arch rivals stepped on the pitch that evening, the duel for many players and spectators had an ever more serious dimension. Brehme, Klinsmann and Mattha"us plying their trade for Internazionale at that time while Gullit, Rijkaard and van Basten kicked for the local rival Milan. Inter won 2-1 in one of the best yet most controversial games in World Cup history. 38 DORTMUND 11-1 BIELEFELD 6 November 1982, Westfalenstadion, Dortmund, Bundesliga, matchday 12 At half-time the score was still 1-1 … 37 LIVERPOOL FC 0-2 ARSENAL FC 26 May 1989, Anfield Road, Liverpool, First Division, matchday 32 The game had been postponed to the end of the season, due to the Hillsborough catastrophe in Sheffield, when 96 Liverpool fans died. Thus it came to a real showdown, Arsenal had to win at least 2-0 at Anfield to win their first title since 1971. Arsenal were up 1-0 seconds before the end of the game, then Michael Thomas scored the all-deciding second in the 92nd minute and Liverpool were toppled. “They kept their powder dry until it really mattered” said the BBC commentary. For Liverpool it was a nightmare. They had lost the championship and -- what hurt far more -- 96 supporters. 36 ARGENTINA 2-1 ENGLAND 22 June 1986, Azteca, Ciudad de Mexico, World Cup, quarterfinal It’s often a fine line between genius and madness. People had Diego Maradona down as a football criminal after he scored with his hand, but six minutes later he proved that he was more than a mere criminal. He was an ingenious criminal. 35 CELTIC 2-1 INTERNAZIONALE 25 May 1967, Estadio Nacional, Lisbon, European Cup final Celtic Simpson - Craig, W.McNeil, J.Clark, Gemmell -- Murdoch, Auld -- Johnstone, Wallace, Chalmers, Lennox Inter Sarti -- Burgnich, Guarneri, Picchi, Facchetti -- Bedin, A.Mazzola, Bicicli -- Domenghini, Cappellini, Corso Outside of Scotland, this European Cup final seems to be quite underrated. Not that it was such a high class game (well, it was), but because eleven low-brow home boys (only outside left Lennox was not born in Glasgow) overpowered a seemingly unbeatable opponent. Inter was at that time the best side in Europe. But blokes like Billy McNeil, Jimmy Johnstone or Tommy Gemmell refuted every cliche about Scottish football by wrestling Inter down with astoundingly civil means. Unforgettable the statement of one Celtic hero “They all looked like filmstars while some of our players had already gaps in their dentures.” And thus the spectators in Lisbon witnessed a collectively sacrificial game by the Celtic XI. Celtic became the first British winners of the European Cup that day. Until now, no other Scottish side has managed to equal the feat of the “Lisbon Lions”. Some color footage 34 VfB STUTTGART 4-4 WERDER BREMEN 28 March 2004, Gottlieb-Daimler-Stadion, Stuttgart, Bundesliga, matchday 26 VfB Hildebrand -- Lahm, Zivkovic, Bordon, Gerber (82 Szabics) -- Meira, Soldo, A.Hleb, Meissner (52 Yakin) - Kuranyi, Streller Werder Reinke -- Stalteri, Ismael, Krstajic, C.Schulz -- Lisztes, F.Baumann, Micoud, Ernst -- Ailton, Klasnic You can find a detailed report here. 33 HOLLAND 2-1 SOVIET UNION 26 June 1988, Olympiastadion, Munich, European Championship final Holland van Breukelen - van Aerle, R.Koeman, Rijkaard, van Tiggelen -- Vanenburg, Wouters, E.Koeman, Muhren -- Gullit, van Basten Soviet Union Dasaev -- Alejnikov, Chidyatullin, Litovchenko, Demianenko -- Zavarov, Gostmanov (69 Baltacha), Rats, Mikhailichenko -- Belanov, Protassov (71 Passulko) Holland in 1988, although less talented and flamboyant than in 1974, both times coached by Rinus Michels, won its first and so far only major trophy. Michels had returned to the place of his bitterest humiliation and at the end celebrated his greatest triumph. The great highlight of this final is of course van Basten’s spectacular volley, arguably the finest goal ever scored in a major international final. 32 VfB STUTTGART 4-3 a.e.t. FORTUNA DU"SSELDORF 16 November 1958, Auestadion, Kassel, German Cup final VfB Sawitzki -- Eisele, Seibold -- Hartl, R.Hoffmann, Weise -- Waldner, Schlienz, Geiger, Blessing, Praxl Fortuna Klose -- Vigna, Juskowiak -- K.Hoffmann, Ja"ger, Mauritz -- Steffen,Wolfframm, Jansen, Derwall, Wo"ske Neat game, apparently. 31 ENGLAND 2-3 a.e.t. WEST GERMANY 14 June 1970, Estadio Guanajuato, Leon, World Cup, quarterfinal England Bonetti -- Newton, Labone, Moore, Cooper -- Ball, R.Charlton, Hurst, Mullery -- F.Lee, Peters West Germany Maier -- Vogts, Schnellinger, Fichtel, Ho"ttges (46 Schulz) -- Seeler, Beckenbauer, Overath -- Libuda (56 Grabowski), G.Mu"ller, Lo"hr Germany wanted to gain revenge for Wembley 66 and that’s exactly what they got here. 30 WERDER BREMEN 5-3 RSC ANDERLECHT 8 December 1993, Weserstadion, Bremen, Champions League, group stage Werder Reck -- Bratseth -- Beiersdorfer, Borowka -- Basler (87 Wiedener), Votava, Herzog (46 Wolter), Eilts, Bode -- Hobsch, Rufer RSC de Wilde -- Emmers, Rutjes, Albert, Crasson -- Zetterberg (83 Kooiman), Walem, Boffin, Versavel -- Haagdoren, Bosman (70 Nilis) The Belgians were leading 3-0 at half-time. They were still leading 3-0 after one hour. Then Rufer scored Bremen’s first goal 25 minutes from time. It looked like a mere consolation goal, nothing more… 29 BRAZIL 1-2 URUGUAY 16 June 1950, Estadio Jornalista Mario Filho (Maracana), Rio de Janeiro, World Cup final game Brazil Barbosa -- Augusto, Juvenal -- Bauer, Danilo, Bigode -- Friaca, Zizinho, Ademir, Jair, Chico Uruguay Maspoli -- M.Gonzales, Tejera -- Gambetta, Varela, Andrade II -- Ghiggia, Perez, Miguez, Schiaffino, Vidal Brazil’s national tragedy. No commentary needed, I think. 28 EINTRACHT FRANKFURT 5-3 KICKERS OFFENBACH 28 May 1959, Olympiastadion, Berlin, German championship final Frankfurt Loy -- Eigenbrodt, Ho"fer -- Stinka, Lutz, Weilba"cher -- Kress, Sztani, Feigenspan, Lindner, Pfaff Offenbach Zimmermann -- Waldmann, Schultheiss -- Keim, Lichtl, Wade -- Kraus, Nuber, Gast, Kaufhold, Preisendo"rfer One of the most deep-rooted rivalries in German club football had its climax when both teams met in the 1959 championship final game in Berlin. For these two clubs, it couldn’t get better than that. It was the ultimate contest for them to determine who was the top dog. After a marvellous game, Eintracht had decided the outcome in their favour but their road to glory was not over yet. A year later they would impress all of Europe and it took a legendary Real Madrid side to stop them from winning the biggest prize of all. 27 BAYERN MUNICH 3-4 HAMBURG SV 24 April 1982, Olympiastadion, Munich, Bundesliga, matchday 29 Bayern Junghans -- Beierlorzer, Weiner, Augenthaler, Horsmann -- Dremmler, Breitner, Du"rnberger, Kraus -- D.Hoeness, K.H.Rummenigge Hamburg Stein -- Kaltz, Hieronymus, D.Jakobs, Groh -- Hartwig, von Heesen, Magath, Wehmeyer -- Hrubesch, Bastrup This was Hamburg’s finest game ever in domestic league history, they were already down 1-3 in Munich to reigning champs Bayern but than managed an inspired comeback in the last 20 minutes that ultimately decided the championship race in Hamburg’s favor. More on that game here. 26 EVERTON FC 4-4 LIVERPOOL FC 20 February 1991, Goodison Park, Liverpool, F.A. Cup, fifth round Everton Southall -- Atteveld, Hinchcliffe, Ratcliffe, Watson -- Keown, Nevin, McDonald, Sharpe -- Newell, Ebrell Liverpool Grobbelaar -- Burrows, Hysen, Nicol, Molby -- Ablett, Beardsley, Staunton, Barnes -- Rush, Venison “The mother of all Merseyside derbies” according to 4-4-2. Four times Liverpool was in the lead, four times Everton managed to equalize. A rollercoaster for the fans. Radio commentator Jimmy Armfield remembers “I was looking around at the Evertonians around me and felt like I was at a funeral, then only few minutes later I felt like I was in a madhouse as Everton had again equalized.” Everton won the second game 1-0. 25 EINTRACHT FRANKFURT 5-1 FC KAISERSLAUTERN 29 May 1999, Waldstadion, Frankfurt, Bundesliga, matchday 34 Frankfurt Nikolov -- Janssen (86 Westerthaler) -- Bindewald, Kutschera, Zampach -- B.Schneider, Schur, Sobotzik, R.Weber -- Yang, Fjo"rtoft K’Lautern Reinke -- Ramzy -- Koch, Schjo"nberg -- Buck, Ratinho, Sforza, Riedl, M.Wagner -- Ro"sler, Marschall This game is only the tip of the iceberg of the Bundesliga’s most thrilling ever relegation finish. Here’s the complete story and time table how things developed during those 90 minutes in various stadia. 24 SWEDEN 2-5 BRAZIL 29 June 1958, Rasunda-Stadium, Stockholm, Sweden, World Cup final Sweden Svensson -- Bergmark, Axbom -- Bo"rjesson, Gustavsson, Parling -- Hamrin, Gren, Simonsson, Liedholm, Skoglund Brazil Gilmar -- D.Santos, Orlando, Bellini, N.Santos -- Zito, Didi -- Garrincha, Vava, Pele , Zagalo The game that founded the Brazilian hegemony in world football and the game that made 17-year old Pele the star of international football. Brazil also ignited a tactical revolution by introducing the 4-2-4 system at the world stage. 23 FC BARCELONA 4-3 (a.e.t.) FORTUNA DU"SSELDORF 16 May 1979, St. Jakobs-Park, Basel, Cup Winners’ Cup final Barca Artola -- Zuviria, Costas (66 Martinez), Migueli, Albaladejo (57 de la Cruz) -- Neeskens, Asensi, Sanchez, Rexach -- Krankl, Carrasco Fortuna Daniel -- Baltes, Zewe, Zimmermann (84 Lund), Ko"hnen -- Schmitz, Bommer, Brei (25 Weikl), Th.Allofs, K.Allofs One of the best ever European Cup finals. 22 REAL MADRID 3-3 MANCHESTER UNITED 15 May 1968, Santiagio Bernabeu, Madrid, European Cup semi final, second leg Real Betancourt -- Zocco, Gonzales, Zunzunegui, Sanchis -- Pirri, Grosso, Velazquez, Perez -- Amancio, Gento United Stepney -- Dunne, Crerand, Foulkes, Brennan -- Stiles, R.Charlton, Sadler -- Best, Kidd, Aston United had won the first leg 1-0 but was trailing 1-3 at half-time in the second leg. The team’s iron will to help Matt Busby finally win the European Cup was the foundation for Manchester’s fairytale comeback in the second half. Bill Foulkes scored his only ever goal in international competition in the second half. 21 CHELSEA FC 4-2 FC BARCELONA 8 March 2005, Stamford Bridge, London, Champions League, round of last 16, second leg Chelsea Cech -- Ferreria (51 Johnson), Carvalho, Terry, Gallas -- Makelele, J.Cole, Lampard, Duff (85 Huth) -- Kezman, Gudjohnsen (79 Tiago) Barca Valdes -- Belletti (84 Giuly), Puyol, Oleguer, van Bronckhorst (46 Sylvinho) -- Xavi, Gerard, Deco, Iniesta (86 Maxi Lopez) -- Ronaldinho, Eto’o You all remember that game. 20 BORUSSIA MO"NCHENGLADBACH 2-1 a.e.t. FC COLOGNE 23 July 1973, Rheinstadion, Du"sseldorf, German Cup final Borussia Kleff -- Vogts, Sieloff, Bonhof, Michallik -- Wimmer, Danner, Kulik (91 Netzer) -- H.Jensen, Rupp (117 Stielike), Heynckes Cologne Welz -- Glowacz (71 Gebauer), Cullmann, Weber, Hein -- Simmet, Flohe, Overath (71 Konopka), H.Neumann - Kapellmann, Lo"hr This is the greatest Cup final in German football history, a game packed with plenty of opportunities and action, fast-paced, technical and dramatic, as Gu"nter Netzer, the great star of German football in those years, was benched by his coach Hennes Weisweiler because Netzer had announced his departure from Mo"nchengladbach to join Real Madrid just a few days earlier. At half-time Weisweiler told Netzer that he’d play in the second half, but Netzer refused. The score was still 1-1 after 90 minutes when Netzer decided that it was now time for him to enter the pitch for extra-time, he informed his coach coolly by saying nothing else than “now I’m playing”. Two minutes after subbing himself into the game, Netzer scored the game-winning goal with a left-footed strike that is still the stuff of legend in Germany. You can watch the first 6 minutes of that extra-time in this youtube video http //www.youtube.com/watch?v=SuxcFq_e6fg 19 SUNDERLAND FC 1-0 LEEDS UNITED 5 May 1973, Wembley stadium, London, F.A. Cup final SFC Montgomery -- Malone, Horswill, Watson, Guthrie -- Kerr, Pitt, Hughes, Porterfield -- Halom, Tueart Leeds Harvey -- Reaney, Hunter, Cherry, Madeley -- Bremner, Giles -- Lorimer, Clarke, M.Jones, E.Gray (75 Yorath) Second division side Sunderland were one of the biggest ever outsiders in any F.A. Cup final. Hardly has there ever been a more overwhelming favourite than Leeds in that game. Sunderland’s keeper Jimmy Montgomery pulled off one of the most amazing double saves in the history of the sport. You can check that here 18 BORUSSIA MO"NCHENGLADBACH 5-4 (a.e.t.) WERDER BREMEN 1 May 1984, Bo"kelberg Stadion, Mo"nchengladbach, German Cup semi final Gladbach Sude -- Ringels, Bruns, Hannes, Frontzeck -- Herlovsen, Mattha"us, Rahn, W.Scha"fer (82 Borowka) -- Mill, Lienen (82 Criens) Werder Burdenski -- Schaaf, Fichtel, Siegmann, Otten -- Gruber (17 Kamp, 77 Ordenewitz), Sidka, Mo"hlmann, N.Meier -- Reinders, Neubarth One amazing semi final. The sequence of goals went like this 1-0 40th, 1-1 42nd, 2-1 44th, 3-1 76th, 3-2 77th, 3-3 80th, 3-4 82nd, 4-4 90th, 5-4 107th. The other semi final in the 1983-84 German Cup is also featured in this countdown, it was even more amazing. 17 ENGLAND 4-2 (a.e.t.) WEST GERMANY 30 July 1966, Wembley stadium, London, World Cup final Eng Banks -- Cohen, J.Charlton, R.Moore, Wilson -- Stiles, R.Charlton, Peters, Ball -- Hurst, Hunt Ger Tilkowski -- Ho"ttges, Schulz, Weber, Schnellinger -- Haller, Beckenbauer, Overath -- Held, Seeler, Emmerich Simply one of the most legendary games in all of football history. 16 WEST GERMANY 3-3 (a.e.t., 5-4 pens.) FRANCE 8 July 1982, Estadio Sanchez Pizjuan, Sevilla, World Cup semi final Ger Schumacher -- Kaltz, Stielike, K.H.Fo"rster, Briegel (96 Rummenigge) -- Dremmler, B.Fo"rster, Breitner, Magath (73 Hrubesch) -- Fischer, Littbarski France Ettori -- Amoros, Tresor, Janvion, Bossis -- Giresse, Tigana, Platini, Genghini (51 Battiston, 61 Lopez) -- Rocheteau, Six One fat, massive World Cup semi final. This game really had it all. Will we ever see games like this in our lifetime again? http //www.youtube.com/watch?v=cax70ChDBWU 15 CHARLTON ATHLETIC 7-6 HUDDERSFIELD TOWN 6 21 December 1957, The Valley, Charlton, F.A. Cup third round Charlton Duff -- Edwards, Townsend -- Hewie, Ufton, Kiernan -- Lucas, Ryan, Leary, Summers Town Kennon -- Conwell, Wilson -- K.Taylor, Connor, McGarry -- Ledger, Howard, Bain, Massie, Simpson The game everyone has been waiting for ..... more details here. 14 1. FC KAISERSLAUTERN 7-4 BAYERN MUNICH 20 October 1973, Betzenberg Stadion, Kaiserslautern, Bundesliga, matchday 12 K’Lautern Elting -- Huber, Diehl, Schwager, Fuchs -- Bitz, Toppmo"ller, Laumen -- Pirrung, Sandberg, Ackermann Bayern Maier -- Hansen, Beckenbauer, Schwarzenbeck, Du"rnberger -- Roth, Zobel. U.Hoeness -- W.Hoffman, G.Mu"ller, Gersdorff All details can be found here. 13 ENGLAND 3-6 HUNGARY 25 November 1953, Wembley stadium, London, friendly Eng Merrick -- Ramsey, Eckersley -- Wright, H.Johnston, Dickinson -- Matthews, E.Taylor, Mortensen, Sewell, Robb Hungary Grosics (78 Geller) -- Buzansky, Lantos -- Bozsik, Lorant, Zakarias -- Budai, Kocsis, Hidegkuti, Puskas, Czibor The game that shook the football world! More details 12 HOLLAND 2-3 CZECH REPUBLIC 19 June 2004, Aveiro Municipal, Aveiro, European Championship, group stage Holland van der Sar -- Bouma, Heitinga, Stam, van Bronckhorst -- van der Meyde (77 Reiziger), Seedorf (85 van der Vaart), Davids, Cocu -- van Nistelrooy, Robbem (58 Bosvelt) Czechs Cech -- Jankulovski, Ujfalusi, Jiranek, Grygera (25 Smicer) -- Poborsky, Galasek (62 Heinz), Rosicky, Nedved -- Koller (75 Rozenahl), Baros The stunning 2004 Euro game. 11 ENGLAND 1-3 WEST GERMANY 29 April 1972, Wembley stadium, London, European Championship quarterfinal, first leg Eng Banks -- Madeley, R.Moore, Hunter, Hughes -- Bell, Ball, Hurst (57 Marsh), Peters -- Chivers, F.Lee Ger Maier -- Ho"ttges, Beckenbauer, Schwarzenbeck, Breitner -- Wimmer, Netzer, U.Hoeness -- Grabowski, G.Mu"ller, Held Up until this game, Germany had never been able to beat England at Wembley. It didn’t look like they could pull it off this time, as Germany’s most important players, those from Bayern Munich, were going through a crisis, having lost 1-5 at Cologne, 0-3 at Duisburg and 0-2 at Rangers in the weeks before this game. Then quite a number of important players of other clubs were missing due to injury, like Berti Vogts, Jupp Heynckes and Karl-Heinz Schnellinger. Thus overall there were very little hopes in Germany regarding this tie with England. One can imagine the joy and bliss felt throughout Germany while watching Germany unexpectedly take England apart in their own sacred Wembley stadium. 10 MANCHESTER UNITED 2-1 BAYERN MUNICH 26 May 1999, Nou Camp, Barcelona, Champions League final United Schmeichel -- G.Neville, Johnson, Stam, Irwin -- Beckham, Butt, Scholes, Blomquist (67 Sheringham), Giggs -- Yorke, A.Cole (81 Solskjaer) Bayern Kahn -- Mattha"us (80 Fink) -- Babbel, Linke, Kuffour -- Basler (89 Salihamidzic), Effenberg, Jeremies, Tarnat -- Jancker, Zickler (71 Scholl) Gregoriak is offline 9 ITALY 3-2 BRAZIL 5 July 1982, Estadio Sarria, Barcelona, World Cup second round Ita Zoff -- Gentile, Scirea, Collovati (34 Bergomi), Cabrini -- Tardelli (75 Marini), Antognoni, Oriali, Conti -- Graziani, Rossi Bra Valdir Peres -- Leandro, Oscar, Luizinho, Junior -- Cerezo, Socrates, Falcao, Zico -- Serginho (69 Paulo Isidoro), Eder High quality game, big hero Paolo Rossi, fallen superstars of Brazil. 8 REAL MADRID 7-3 EINTRACHT FRANKFURT 18 May 1960, Hampden Park, Glasgow, European Cup final Real Dominguez -- Marquitos, Pachin -- Vidal, Santamaria, Zarrago -- Canario, del Sol, di Ste fano, Puskas, Gento Eintracht Loy -- Lutz, Hofer -- Weilba"cher, Eigenbrodt, Stinka -- Kress, Lindner, Stein, Pfaff, Meier 134,000 spectators watched in awe how Real Madrid took apart a talented Eintracht side that had beaten Rangers 12-4 on aggregate in the semi final. The greatest European Cup final of all? The compilers of this countdown don’t think so… 7 LIVERPOOL FC 5-4 (a.e.t.) DEPORTIVO ALAVES 16 May 2001, Westfalenstadion, Dortmund, UEFA Cup final LFC Westerveld -- Babbel, Henchoz (56 Smicer), Hyypia", Carragher -- Gerrard, Hamann, McAllister, Murphy -- Heskey (65 Fowler), Owen (79 Berger) Alaves Herrera -- Contra, Eggen (23 Ivan Alonso), Karmona, Geli -- Tomic, Desio, Tellez, Astudilo (46 Magno Mocelin) -- Cruyff, Javi Moreno (65 Pablo) Remarkable score, considering that Liverpool had a very good defense that year, hardly ever conceding more than two goals. LFC were up 2-0 pretty fast and then possibly underestimated the Spaniards. They managed the equalizer in the 89th minute (4-4) and then even scored a goal in extra-time, which would have decided the game, but it was not given due to off-side. Then Alaves collected two sent-offs and Liverpool scored the golden 5-4 goal. In fact, it was Alaves that scored Liverpool’s goal. A heart-breaking own-goal! 6 WEST GERMANY 3-2 HUNGARY 4 July 1954, Wankdorf-Stadion, Bern, World Cup final Ger Turek -- Posipal, Kohlmeyer -- Eckel, Liebrich, Mai -- Rahn, Morlock, O.Walter, F.Walter, Scha"fer Hun Grosics -- Lantos, Buzansky -- Bozsik, Lorant, Zakarias -- Czibor, Kocsis, Hidegkuti, Puskas, M.Toth The most legendary game in German football history and one of the biggest upsets in World Cup history. 5 BORUSSIA MO"NCHENGLADBACH 7-1 INTERNAZIONALE 20 October 1971, Bo"kelberg, Mo"nchengladbach, European Cup second round, first leg B.M.G. Kleff -- Vogts, L.Mu"ller, Sieloff, Bleidick -- Bonhof, Netzer (83 Wittkamp), Kulik -- Wimmer, Heynckes, Le Fevre Inter Vieri (46 Bordon) -- Oriali, Giubertoni, Burgnich, Facchetti -- Fabbian, Bedin, A.Mazzola, Corso -- Boninsegna (28 Ghio), Jair A game not counted by UEFA due to a can thrown at Boninsegna by a Gladbach fan. If it had counted, it would have gone down as one of the greatest examples of offensive football crushing defensive football. Arguably the greatest performance by a German club side in a European game. The brilliant Gu"nter Netzer at the peak of his powers in command of a magnificently brilliant Mo"nchengladbach side. What a great game a European Cup final between Cruyff’s Ajax Amsterdam and Netzer’s Mo"nchengladbach could have been, but instead the catenaccio masters of Internazionale made it to the 1972 European Cup final where they were without a chance against Ajax. Mo"nchengladbach would have been a far more worthy opponent for Ajax and I’m pretty sure the two sides could have produced one of the finest spectacles of offensive football in the history of the sport. Too bad they never met. 4 FC SCHALKE 6-6 (a.e.t.) BAYERN MUNICH 2 May 1984, Parkstadion, Gelsenkirchen, German Cup semi final S.04 Junghans -- Kruse, Dietz, M.Jakobs, Schipper -- Opitz (106 Berge), Dierssen, Thon, Abramczik (73 Clute-Simon) -- Stichler, K.Ta"uber Bayern Pfaff -- Beierlorzer, Augenthaler, Grobe (109 Kraus), Pflu"gler -- Du"rnberger (77 D.Hoeness), Lerby, Mathy, Nachtweih -- K.H.Rummenigge, M.Rummenigge FC Schalke 04 was a second division side at the time of this legendary game. This game made young Olaf Thon an overnight sensation. This boy had just celebrated his 18th birthday the night before and would be the big star of this game, scoring not one, not two, but three goals against the overwhelming favorites from Munich. Just check the goal sequence to see what a brilliant match this was to be at 0-1 K.H.Rummenigge 3 0-2 Mathy 12 1-2 Kruse 13 2-2 Thon 19 2-3 M.Rummenigge 20 3-3 Thon 61 4-3 Stichler 72 4-4 M.Rummenigge 80 4-5 D.Hoeness 112 5-5 Dietz 115 5-6 D.Hoeness 118 6-6 Thon 120 What an utterly amazing game this was in front of 70,000 boiling spectators (it is available on tape for anyone interested). The tie had to be repeated, this time in Munich, Bayern won 3-2. 3 ITALY 4-3 (a.e.t.) WEST GERMANY 17 June 1970, Estadio Azteca, Mexico City, World Cup semi final Ita Albertosi -- Burgnich, Cera, Rosato (91 Poletti), Bertini, Facchetti -- Domenghini, de Sisti, A.Mazzola (46 Rivera) -- Boninsegna, Riva Ger Maier -- Vogts, Schnellinger, Schulz, Patzke (66 Held) -- Seeler, Beckenbauer, Overath -- Grabowski, G.Mu"ller, Lo"hr (52 Libuda) I assume most everyone checking out this thread has seen this game anyway, so no need for me write anything. 2 LIVERPOOL FC 3-3 (a.e.t.) AC MILAN 25 May 2005, Atatu"rk Stadium, Istanbul, Champions League Final LFC Dudek -- Finnan (46 Hamann), Traore, Hyypia", Carragher -- Riise, Gerrard, Luis Garcia, Xabi Alonso -- Kewell (23 Smicer), Baros (85 Cisse ) Milan Dida -- Cafu , Stam, Nesta, Maldini -- Seedorf (85 Serginho), Gattuso (112 Rui Costa), Pirlo, Kaka -- Shevchenko, Crespo (85 Tomasson) Still fresh in everyone’s memory I guess? 1 BAYER UERDINGEN 7-3 DYNAMO DRESDEN 19 March 1986, Grotenburg Kampfbahn, Krefeld, Cup Winners Cup quarterfinal, second leg Uerd. Vollack - Herget - Da"mgen, W Funkel - Buttgereit, Bommer, Feilzer, F Funkel, Raschid (52 Klinger) - Gudmundsson (72 Loontiens), Scha"fer Dynamo Jakubowski (46 Ramme) - Do"rner - Trautmann, Doschner - Minge, Ha"fner, Stubner, M Sammer (28 Gu"tschow), Pilz - Kirsten, Lippmann So here it is, the number one game of all time, according to "11 Freunde". Bayer Uerdingen won the German Cup in a 1985 upset against Bayern Munich. Here they were facing East German Cup winners Dynamo Dresden. Uerdingen had lost the first leg 0-2 at Dresden. At half-time of the second leg, Dynamo was up 3-1, or 5-1 on aggregate. Uerdingen now only needed to score five goals in the second 45 minutes to advance to the semi final. There were no signs early in the second half that such a miracle was about to happen. After one hour, the aggr. score was still 1-5. But then Bayer Uerdingen exploded. What followed were the greatest 30 minutes of all time? Maybe! 0-1 Minge 1 1-1 W Funkel 13 1-2 Lippmann 36 1-3 Bommer 41 own goal 2-3 W Funkel 58 penalty 3-3 Minge 62 own goal 4-3 Scha"fer 66 5-3 Klinger 78 6-3 W Funkel 81 penalty 7-3 Scha"fer 86
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簡易メモ ホテルに入って右のつきあたりにHelthDrink 奥の広間でGrand Hotel Map入手。 先に進むもエレベーターが止まっている。 Maintenance Key入手。 取るとスモッグ出現。 +Tips Paul As Mayor Bartlett will be working in the Atrium late this evening, please make sure the exterior service doors are left unlocked. Mr.Jones ポールへ バートレット市長が、今日の夕方遅くまでアトリウムで働くので、外のサービスドアがアンロックされたままなのを確認してください。 ジョーンズ 一度ホテルを出てすぐ横、鍵のかかった柵をあけます。 スモッグ*1、HealthDrink 謎解き、結線します。 (配電盤の裏のゴミ箱?にヒント有り。XXI。) Elevator エレベーター内にピストルの弾。 エレベータの横のボタンを調べてイベント。 ニードラー×1匹が4連続。弾があることから銃推奨?(ナイフの強攻撃でも届きます。) 3階 降りたときに見える女性の絵(302号室右)をカット、picture 302号室へダック セーブポイント 出るとイベント 女性の思い出をホテルを探し回って探して挙げましょう。 304号室 +Tips Sam, I can t thank you enough for all of your hard work in restoring the Atrium to its former glory. My illness continues to worsen, but it gives me great comfort that my Carol and I can find solace in the beautiful garden you ve created, Thank you so much. ―Clayton サムへ 過去の栄光に対するアトリウムの復元作業における君の見事な仕事に十分な謝辞を述べれず残念だ。 私の病気は日に日に悪くなるが、君がしつらえた美しい庭、そしてキャロルの献身的な介護に大きな安らぎを感じている。 ありがとう クレイトンより フロアの左右を区切る中央の円形の場所にTHROUGHできる場所があります。 そこから 307号室へ 308号室 +Tips Dearest Sam, I can t describe how much my life has turned a corner since you ve begun tending the Atrium. with Clayton s illness slowly taking its toll, I ve felt so lost and alone, Your presence and your gift in restring the garden...It s the single ray of light in my tired life, and it brings me joy. Thank you for the many wonderful evenings we ve spent together. It will be different - better - when I no longer have to pretend. All my love. ―Carol x 親愛なるサムへ 何て書いたらいいのか迷うけれども、私の人生の転機はあなたがアトリウムに関する事業に傾倒していった頃からかしら。 それに伴ってクレイトン卿の病気は悪くなっていったけど、寂しくはなかった。 貴方の存在、貴方のプレゼント…それは私の疲れ切った人生に一筋の光明だった。 一緒に過ごした最高の夜をありがとう。もう誰にも邪魔はさせないわ。愛に誓って キャロル 壁の落書き 405 scares me. I left my ducky in there. 405号室が怖い。アヒルを置いて来ちゃった。 廊下を回り309号室の壁面をHack 中央の箪笥から4Fへ 4階 408号室へ上りそのまま406号室へ。 +Tips Carol, I m struggling to find the right words, My body was broken and now you ve broken my heart too. I don t know why. I loved you unconditionally, gave you everything I had, I thought you loved me too. I guess I was a fool. There are things, things about Sam you don t know, and if you did, I guarantee you d feel differently. I want to forgive you Carol, but I can t... I ve simply nothing left. キャロル、君にこの思いを伝えられる言葉が見つからない。 私の体は病に食われ、今となって君は私の心まで壊してしまった。 どうしてだ、私にはわからない。 君を愛していた、全てを捧げた。君も私のことを愛してくれてると信じていた。 私が馬鹿だったのか。君はサムの事を知らない。 知っていたら君の想いも変わるだろう。君を許してやりたい。 でも、もう私には無理だ。君に捧げられる物はない。 406号室から出る所で昆虫×3匹程度 廊下の中央部まで来ると402号室からナース×1匹 (強いので注意。攻撃が速いので、一発貰うと連続でサクサク削られます…。要間合い管理。) +Tips Delivery Notice Alchemilla Hospital 配達通知 アルケミラ病院 ―Two oxygen tanks removed and replaced with full ones for Mr.Doyle s suite. 2つの酸素タンクを取り外し、ドイル氏の部屋の物と取り替えました。 There s massage above the bathtub. It says バスタブの周りにメッセージが書いてある。 You can t wash it off. 「お前はそれを洗い落とせない。」 402号室の箪笥をPush、404号室へ。 404号室バスルームにAlchemilla Postcard +Tips Alchemilla Postcard アルケミラポストカード I long for the days before my illness overtook me. From my window I can see a large oak. The leaves are ablaze - yellow and red - and with each day more of them fall. When the sun is low, the shadows from its branches trail across my walls, but soon after the darkness fills the room. Please come-and see me soon. I want to share one more memory with you, while I still can. Love always 私を縛りつけた病気以前の日々 窓からは大きなオークの樹を見ることが出来た。日毎にその葉は黄色から赤へと萌え、落ちていった。 夕方、木陰が壁に射し、日没になると部屋は真っ暗になった。 どうか会いに来て…私が生きている間に、ひとつでも多くの思い出を共にしたいの…愛してる… いったん戻ると405号室へ入れるようになります。 同時に405号室から 虫×3匹 405→407へと移動。 408の壁面をhack 壊すと同時に廊下から 虫×1匹 Serum入手 map右上の階段の壁面をhack 5Fへイベント ニードラーと戦闘、正面からの攻撃はガードされるので攻撃を回避して後ろを取る。 +ハメ技 5F階段の踊り場まで誘導すると引っ掛かって、安全に処理可能 通路をジャンプした先にHealthDrink 508号室 虫*3 +Tips jim, They were there again last night. I saw Carol creeping towards the main ballroom and you know where that leads... I don t know what the old man would do if he were to find out. given his health, he might not make it. Do you think I should say something? ―Paul ジム、昨夜、また彼らがあそこに居た。 キャロルが舞踏室のほうに忍び込むのを見たんだ。 あそこの先にはあれがあるからな。あの人も病気だし、この事を知ったらもう終わりかもしれないな。 何か言うべきかな? -ポール 505 箪笥を動かし 507へ 507号室のベッドの上 Likeside Amusement Park Postcord +Tips Lakeside Amusement Park Postcard レイクサイド遊園地 ポストカード What a wonderful day! The smell of cotton candy and the sound of laughter filled the air. Days like this make me appreciate what it was like to be young and carefree. Family is the most important thing - and our children are the future. I only wish I could feel that innocent again. See you soon. 綿菓子の香りと笑い声に満ちて、何て素晴らしい日! こんな日々が、気ままだった若い頃の価値を気づかせる もっとも大切なものは家族、子供は私達の未来 唯一の望みは、もう一度無邪気だった頃のように感じる事 またね バスルームにHealthDrink map左手側に進むとニードラー ※前述ハメ技有効 504号室hack ピストルの弾 箪笥を動かすと壁にChilds Drawing 503号室扉左の穴から503号室へ 部屋手前の穴からニードラーが出てくることがあります 室内から下のフロアへ 403号室 バスタブからToluca Lake Postcard +Tips Toluca Lake Postcard トルーカ湖 ポストカード I have some sad news to share. Yesterday I took a boat out - as far as I could row - and I dipped my face into the cold, clear water. As I leaned over the side of the rowboat, my necklace caught on the oar and the chain snapped. I saw your gift slip into the blackness, I wanted to dive in after it, but the water was so icy so deep. Please...forgive me. I miss you. 悲しい知らせを聞いて、昨日、ボートで行けるところまで漕ぎ出したの。 それから、冷たく澄んだ水の中に顔をひたした。 身を乗り出していたら、オールにネックレスが引っかかって、チェーンが切れてしまったの。 あなたの大切な贈り物が、暗闇に沈んでいくのを見て、追って飛び込みたかったけれど、水は氷のように冷たくて、深かった。どうか許して。 あなたに会いたい 503号室を出るとニードラー map右上の階段から下のフロアへ 戻る途中、508号室からニードラー(hardだけかも) 4Fに戻るとナース 407にナース×2 408の穴から3Fへ 廊下に出るとスモッグ 307を通り301に戻るとイベント Strange Keyを入手 302から鍵のかかった小部屋へ戻り鍵を使います。 ジョシュアがいるので穴を飛び越えようとするとイベント HealthDrink、ピストルの弾 セーブポイント アトリウム(mapしたの円形の場所へ) BOSS セプルカー 最初に周囲にある4つの肉袋を、敵の攻撃を避けつつ破壊。木棚の後ろに隠れると地震攻撃以外を防げる。 Bossが下に落下するので、攻撃を回避し手が地面に突き刺さったところを攻撃、うつぶせになるので頭部への攻撃を行う。繰り返し。 Police Station TIPS General Notice; 一般通知 A memorial service for Clayton Doyle will be held today at Dargento Cemetery. All employees are required to attend. クレイトン・ドイルのための追悼式は今日、Dargento Cemeteryで開催されます。 全社員は出席しなければなりません。
https://w.atwiki.jp/cheapugg058/pages/18.html
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https://w.atwiki.jp/hellishlondon/pages/40.html
Second Developer Chat Planned For 4PM, February 8th LOG 口語体チックなので細かな意味が把握できない箇所がありますが、まぁ超訳wってことでチマチマ訳していきます。 Scapes-Flagship Welcome, Hellgaters one and all! Welcome to this, the second Developer Chat Event. In order to ask the developers a question, enter the following text /msg DevBot QUESTION with QUESTION being your question. The bot is now unlocked and ready for your questions! ようこそ、第二回開発者チャットイベントにきてくれたヘルゲイター諸君!開発者に質問するためには /msg DevBot QUESTION で、質問を入力してくれ。botは今Unlockされて、君たちの質問を受付中。 Scapes-Flagship Again, that is "/msg DevBot QUESTION" without the quotes. もう一度書くけど、"/msg DevBot QUESTION"でお願い。クォーテーションは省いてね。 Scapes-Flagship We will be starting in about three minutes. あと3分くらいしたら始めるよー。 Scapes-Flagship It is 4PM here at Flagship Studios and we would like to welcome you all to this Hellgate London Developer Chat Event! This is the second DevChat we ve had and it looks to be a big one! そんじゃ4時になったので、~(省略)~第二回開発者チャットイベントを開催シマス。 Scapes-Flagship We have a host of developers ready to answer your burning questions about Hellgate London. 開発者達の準備が整いましたので、Hellgae Londonについての君たちの燃え盛る疑問に答えよう。 BRoper Hey everyone! Welcome to the chat! ようこそ皆さん、私がピザです。 Bogustus Hey everyone! よぁ、みんな。 TaylorFSS`work Hey all ) よぉ。 Dave_Glenn hello all やぁ。 AlanHu Hey everyone ] やぁ、みんな。 Question DevBot InnerVisions 10 4asks10 What happened to the random quests that were planned for the game? Is there any plans to add them in a future update? ランダムクエストって将来的に導入しないの? Answer Bogustus We ve been talking about these more recently. I can t guarantee one way or another, but they definitely on our radar. 最近そういった事について議論してきたんだけど、保証は出来ないなァ。でも視野には入ってるよ。 BRoper We ve been looking at a lot of thngs to get into the game during the upcomgin updates, and the re-introduction of random quests is currently in discussion. We know that players want more non-linear content, so we re looking into all sorts of ideas. 近々導入予定のupdateで、そういったものを多く見かけてるよ。プレイヤーがもっと単発のクエストがやりたいってのはわかってるしね。だから、整理したアイデアを現在検討中なんだ。 Question DevBot Amarra 10 4asks10 Many single-player users are feeling neglected due to the slow rate of single-player patching and the inability to purchase subscriber content for single-player. Can you tell us anything about your future plans for single-player that might reassure us we re not second-class citizens? Single Palyerって待遇悪くないですか?パッチ遅いし、Subscriber専用のコンテンツだってやってみたいです。Single Playerの扱いは、将来的にどうなのかお聞かせ願えますか? Answer BRoper We ve been focusing our efforts on the online portion of the game ssince that is where we see the most players across all of our markets (US/EU/Asia), but some of the work we ve done will translate into the singleplayer experience. Unfortunately the time and testing it takes to do a single-player patch is large, and runs counter to the online testing and patching. We ve been waiting to batch a larger amount of meaningful SP content into BRoper ...so when we have the next round of Class cchnages in - for example - we ll schedule out some time to get a patch out that will mean something to our SP gamers. Question DevBot Sp3tSnAz 10 4asks10 You have said before that there will be some sort of additional "perks" for the founders. As of yet, we have not seen, nor do we know about any of these perks or of when they are to come. Can you give us some idea on when and if we will be seeing anything, as well as what those perks could be? Answer Bogustus We have been working on a couple new items for founders. They aren t quite ready yet, but I think that they are pretty cool. Bogustus I don t have a date for them - we are trying to wait until things are closer to finished before give any dates. Question DevBot Sp3tSnAz 10 4asks10 With areas like Stonehenge it is apparent that you are looking more towards the end game players in Hellgate. However Stonehenge as an area was kind of short lived and other than just farming could be completed within days. What sort of areas or ideas are you looking to add in the future particularly regarding the end game portion of Hellgate London to keep players occupied for long periods of time? Answer BRoper We re looking into more non-linear elements that can be enjoyed not only throughout the course of the game play, but also for the end game. PvP is getting a huge amount of attention now since that is something that players love to do well past when they have finished leveling. We ve got some other ideas up oyur sleeves that we ll be talking about when we get closer. BRoper So yes - we re working on a lot of things right now - and we aren t ready to talk about all of them. We have learned it is better to wait until we can show you guys things in Test Center (or are close) rather than discuss ideas which then become LAW! ;) Question DevBot Lugard 10 4asks10 Are there any plans to allows us to replay quests (without Quest Rewards), so we can fight bosses such as the museum Emporer (Gulkar?) and Sydonia without interrupting the main quest chain, and of course help others with the Wall Quest? Answer Bogustus In Patch 1.1 we added the ability to replay these boss runs. We haven t been working much on The Wall, but the rest should make for some fun farming. Question DevBot [EM]True 10 4asks10 Will a shared stash or a mailing system be implemented soon? 共有倉庫とメール機能はまだ~~? Answer BRoper The in-game email system is the top priority of that group right now. We ve all been wanting it in for a while as it is also the core of our consignment house / auction system. We ll see this much sooner rather than later - no date, but definitely on the visible horizon. emailは最優先のひとつで、オークションハウスも同じ。laterじゃなくてmuch soonerで使えるようになるよ。(最後がちょっと意味不明) Question Scapes-Flagship Naturzauberer asks The skill descriptions in the game are pretty weak, for example you don t know how strong a fire elemental is, how much damage it does, etc. Same goes for all the other pets. Neither do you know how much damage your evoker foci are doing when casting a spell. And the "rating" of a weapon doesn t really say anything (most players think it s useless and confusing), so why don t you replace it with the actual スキル説明が貧相で・・・何とかなりませんか? Answer BRoper The skills descriptions are undergoing a pass to make them more readable and more informative. You ll see our first step towards this with the Marskman skills in the upcoming 1.2 patch when it hits test center. We re also looking at changing the Skill UI to make things much more readable. Skillの説明文はもっとわかりやすいように直してるとこだよ。Patch1.2ではさっそくMarksmanは改善予定。 Question DevBot ForgottenSpiral 10 4asks10 Do you have plans to add shrines back into the game? Answer AlanHu Shrines are definitely on our list of new additions. However, we re still looking at ways to improve upon the ways in which they ll affect gameplay ) Question DevBot Syllvir 10 4asks10 What is your direction and future for HGL. Are you wanting to take it in more a MMORPG route or an ARPG route. MMOとかARPGとかの道はないの? Answer Bogustus Sometimes games don t fit well into the current categories, and that can spark a lot of debate. ゲームが今時のカテゴリーに合わないことがあれば、たくさん議論をする余地はあるってことだよ。 Bogustus What are we working on? We are adding new things to the game on many fronts, but we are place a lot of focus on the multiplayer features like e-mail, auctions, PVP, etc... 僕たちだって、どんどん新しい物を追加しようとしてるし。e-mailとかオークション、PvP等いろいろとね。 Question DevBot `Sunar 10 4asks10 QUESTION Why are people forced to go through normal to get to Elite. Rushing people through normal to get to Elite is very boring for all parties when we just all want to play together on Elite. ノーマルクリアしないとエリート無理とか、ダルいんすけどw Answer Bogustus Anyone who has played Elite knows that it would be pretty brutal for a newbie player. So, we decided to have people earn it. Also, it is one of the few account-wide rewards that we have for beating the game. Eliteプレイヤーなら、初心者にとってEliteは辛いってわかるはずだよ。だからそういう制限を設けたんだ。それに一度クリアすればEliteがプレイできるってのはご褒美なのさ。 Question DevBot Crysalim 10 4asks10 Currently, if a mob is 10 or more levels above you, it is almost impossible to kill. Is this intended? It is most noticable in late nightmare. モンスターのレベルが10上だと、倒すのってほとんど不可能ですよね? Answer AlanHu It isn t intended that the endgame monster s are almost impossible to kill solely due to the level gap, but that isn t to say that endgame monsters shouldn t be very challenging. ゲームクリアが不可能だとは思わないなァ。でもさ、仮にそうだとしても、チャレンジ精神で(ry AlanHu I think there s quite a bit of misunderstanding when it comes to what players feel they "should" be fighting comfortably at the later stages of the game. However, we are constantly keeping an eye on tuning the balance of monsters throughout Hellgate. 少し誤解があるようだけど、プレイヤーが楽勝でゲームをクリアするべきだを感じるようになってきた時は、ヘルゲート全体を通してモンスターのバランス調整するように、いつも注意しているんだ。 Question DevBot Blccdy 10 4asks10 Who is "Psych Mon."? This name is mentioned in about 10 NPC descriptions. Phych Monって誰ですか?10人のNPCでこの単語を目にしたんですが? Answer Scapes-Flagship Psych Mon. is the name of an organization which has profiles on many of the NPCs. Phych Monってのは組織の名前だよ。 Scapes-Flagship You can read these profiles by checking out the "gossip" for NPCs via the radial dial menu. ダイアルメニューでgossipが読めるから、よくチェックしてみてごらん。 Question DevBot lpmcraw 10 4asks10 what will be your next move concerning pvp? will you change the characters balance especially for pvp? PvPは、次はどんなのがあるの?バランス変更とかってないの? Answer Bogustus We are working on some team PvP games. We are still in the early stages of work on this - it something that takes a lot of iteration. team PvPを考えているんだけど、まだ取り掛かったばかりでね。繰り返し作業やってるところなんだ。 Bogustus As far as character balance... None of us want to see the skills squashed into very boring or bland shapes for PvP. We also don t want to have one or two strategies dominate. Bogustus We are hoping that the new PvP features won t require much adjustment in the skills, but we will have to see how things play out. バランスに限っては・・・定番の戦術で終わってしまうようなPvPは飽きちゃうんだよね。新しく考えているのは、Skill調整を必要としないPvP。 Question DevBot Syllvir 10 4asks10 What in the game gives you guys the warm fuzzies? What are you most proud of? Answer Bogustus I really enjoy working on the skills. It is something that I loved in Diablo 2, and it is still my favorite thing in Hellgate London. Question DevBot Loran 10 4asks10 In patch 1.0 the Evoker got a major overhaul. Wich class will be worked on next? 1.0でEvoker、次はどのクラス? Answer Bogustus We have made some very exciting changes to the Marksman. We will be making a post about the specifics soon. Marksman。 Bogustus Some people saw a little "preview" of when we accidentally patched some strings into Test Center a couple weeks ago. 2週間前にミスってTC Patch Noteに書いてた部分を、偶然見た人がいるみたい Bogustus Some highlights Grenade Synergies and Sniper Mode improvements いくつか挙げると、Grenadeの梃入れ、Sniperの改善とかかな。 Question DevBot Jindujun 10 4asks10 There has been alot of questions regarding the M rating of the game as alot of players feel it isnt really living up to the M rating when it comes to blood and gore. Are there any plans on increasing the blood and gore in the game? Maybe add some zombified children. もっと血しぶきを!もっとゾンビチルドレンを! Answer Dave_Glenn Ratings are an interesting challenge... we localized to so many countries and it seems every one has it s own ideas on what s offensive. M ratingは興味深い。アイディアを持ってるようだね。 Dave_Glenn Given our history, we like the gritty violence and settings, but not the point of being "shocking" just for the hell of it. 経験から言うと、暴力シーンとかそういう設定は勿論好きだけど、必ずしもそれはショッキングな印象を与えるようなツボじゃないんだよね Dave_Glenn Zombie children sounds cool though. ;) だが、Zombie Childrenはクールだ。 Question DevBot eu_n3cron_hce 10 4asks10 will you add the HELL difficulty? Hellは追加しないの? Answer Bogustus We don t currently have plans to make a Hell difficulty. We ve ramped the monster difficulty up to the end of Nightmare and it is already too challenging at the end of that. 今そのプランはないねぇ。Nightmareの最後がそんな感じだし。 Bogustus We are trying to make the end of Nightmare a little more reasonably balanced right now. Nightmareの最後をもう少しバランス調整するよ。 Question DevBot [SF]Ayan 10 4asks10 We missed the x-mas event that we thought was going to happen... What ingame events are planned for this year? X-masイベント~(省略)~今年は予定ないの? Answer Bogustus As you guys have seen, we have had a real challenge getting holiday events to happen. Bogustus The difficulty is that it creates a hard deadline when builds have to be completed. Also, it requires that we make a bunch of content that goes away after a couple days. Bogustus We are trying to stop rushing builds, and we are focusing on content that will stay around for a long time. Bogustus I feel bad about it. I wish that we had more time and resources to work on it, but I think that it is the best choice right now. Question DevBot kazanokizu 10 4asks10 ive read hours and hours and hundereds of pages about the "cow level" and still havent found a definitive answer as to whether it exists or if there is an analog to it in hellgate. so is there? Cow Levelのページ読むのに、すげー時間かかったんすけどw 正式な回答ってあるんですか? Answer Dave_Glenn There is no spoon. TaylorFSS`work Moooooooooooooooo!!!!!! Scapes-Flagship Moo. Bogustus Moomoo Scapes-Flagship These are not the droids you are looking for. Bogustus What does the gem do? Question DevBot Sp3tSnAz 10 4asks10 It seems that from the current item levels that you will one day raise the level cap. How will you handle the balance of additional skill points being available for each of the classes and will this mean that down the road we could see a new set of skills available for the existing classes? In regards to this, if ever you did add new skills, how would you go about the balance between subscribers and non subscri Answer Bogustus In our next patch we plan on fixing the fact that several items require over level 50. 次のパッチで、50+のアイテムが要求するステータスを修正する予定だよ。 Bogustus As far as new skills... We are hoping that when we add new skills it will just present more options to subscribers and not necessarily make them more powerful. Bogustus Balance, however, is a tricky thing. Bogustus The goal here is to create more builds for the subscribers. Question DevBot PlatinumDevil 10 4asks10 This may anger subscribers, but are there any plans to improve/extend the out-of-the-box game for non-subscribers? Can non-subs expect anything more from HGL? Subscriberは怒るかもしれないけど、改善とか拡張とか、non-Scbscriberはもう期待は出来ないですか? Answer Bogustus Right now we are working in several directions we are fixing bugs, we are rebalancing things in the box game and we are adding new features for subscribers. いくつか進行中で・・・バグフィックス、バランス再調整、それからSubscriberへの新要素とか。 Bogustus Some things - I m pretty sure that e-mail is included in this - will be available to non-subscribers. 例えば・・・メール機能とかはnon-subscriberでも利用できる予定だよ。 Question DevBot Voska 10 4asks10 most people have Most found the recipies for the tranmografire Cube however there are still i belive 6 that are not known is it possible to get some insite as to what these might be or even if they are in the game yet? Sbscriber専用箱のレシピがあと6つ(?)無いんですけど、実装されてないんですか? Answer Bogustus We are working on some more recipies for the Cube for an upcoming patch. There is still a ton of potential in that magic box. キューブレシピは、もうすぐ来るパッチでいくつか追加予定だよ。キューブには、まだまだ腐るほどの秘めた能力があるんだよ Bogustus The missing recipies... I don t want to give those away... 失われたレシピとか・・・・まぁこれ以上言うのは野暮ってもんさ。 Question Scapes-Flagship Whoa indeed. Slight hiccup with the bot. Scapes-Flagship Akusan asks With the reworking of the Evoker class, and the feedback based changes in 1.1, I wonder if this is going to become more of the norm in the way of game development. Are you planning on reworking other aspects of the game using similar feedback in the future? Answer Bogustus We have a nice set of changes coming up for the Marksman. I m hoping to see these sit in Test Center for a week in order to get feedback and iterate on them before going live with that build. Question DevBot Huntyre 10 4asks10 Is anything currently in the works to make hce more playable... things like lagspikes have been plauging the hc community HCEだとよくラグで死ぬんで、コミュニティが病んでます。 Answer Bogustus Lag spikes come in many shapes and forms. Bogustus Some of them are server lag - we ve got some solutions for the last few issues that we see with this. Bogustus Some of them are framerate issues on your machine - we keep optimizing the graphics, but if you are really concerned about this, then you might want to turn down your graphics settings. Bogustus Sometimes lag comes from a bad connection from you to our servers. I don t have a great answer for this one. I can say that we have many people playing from far, far away from our servers and several have mentioned that they are surprised at how well it works. Bogustus I hate the Lag Monster too. We will keep trying to squash each form he takes, but it is an ongoing battle. Question DevBot Inarai 10 4asks10 When you rebalance the Blademaster, have you considered adding some sort of dodge-based skillset? BMのスキル調整してよ。 スキルに回避とか取り入れて欲しいです。 Answer Bogustus Hmm... The Guardian really is the King of Survival. We have several cool ideas for improving the Blademaster, but most of them focus on polishing the current skills - much like we did with the Evoker. Bogustus When it comes to thinking about new skills for this class, I think that we need to stick with the Blademaster s philosophy of "A good offense is the best defense." Question DevBot Demonos 10 4asks10 QUESTION Is there any chance we ll see some sort of fast melee rogue type of character AKA assassin in D2? Diablo2のアサシンのような高速近接タイプののクラスの登場予定は? Answer Bogustus Fast melee... sounds a lot like the Blademaster... 高速で近接タイプねぇ・・・・BMみたいな感じかな。 Bogustus Maybe we could think of some skills that push him more in that direction, but we have a few other directions that we are considering too. DevBot Krommie 10 4asks10 are there plans to add ways to clear up some inventory spaces, ie craft bag, consumable bag/belt, essence bags... there are way too much stuff to be carry around these days (if it s bag, please make them equipable) Bogustus Man, that backpack does fill up with small stuff doesn t it? We are looking at a couple possible solutions. I can t commit to one of them until we agree on one, but we are talking through solutions now. Question DevBot Bainek 10 4asks10 any plans to add attribute reassignment (respec) in the future? ステータスのrespecはないんですかね? Answer Bogustus You ve been talking about it recently. We ve been talking about it for a long time. 最近その事について議論してるんだ。長~い時間ね。 Bogustus We ve got it on our list. I think that it would be cool to be able to adjust your stats. 確かに、ステータスがrespec出来るといいいねぇ。 Bogustus It definitely seems to be something that would be important for high level characters. 高レベルのキャラクターにとって重要な要素だよねぇ。 Bogustus It might also help the feed system pains. Anyway, yes, we are planning on adding it. feedシステムの欠点を補ってくれるかもしれないから、一応プランには入ってるよ。 Question DevBot Bubo 10 4asks10 With the current mob designs, there seems to be a lack of insectoid based designs. Is this intentional, and would this be something to see in a future chronicle? 昆虫っぽいデザインのモンスターがいないけど、将来的にはどうなんですか? Answer BRoper We currently have 4 castes of demons, and we didn t really push any of the artisticaly towards insectiods. It s a pretty cool idea, though, and woud lend it self to some radical new designs. We ll float that one over to the art department! 今デーモン4匹程考えてるんだけど、実は昆虫タイプなんてデザインは全く考えてなかったんだよ。うん、すごくいいアイディアだね。 Question DevBot Dekar 10 4asks10 Is there any plans to update Acts 1-6 with new tilesets, possibly including some of the things that were originally cut from the game due to time constraints? Answer Dave_Glenn I m assuming Act 6 is referring to Stonehenge areas... but in a nutshell, yes. We ll be adding some variety to the existing base game as time allows. We put the priority on new content, but some things are relatively easy to go back and add Dave_Glenn Don t expect huge modifications, but we too would like to see more variety for those areas. Question DevBot BravenIrish 10 4asks10 Hi guys! Creative members of the community really seem to like "showing off" their characters, making short films, and taking awesome screen shots. Are there plans to add more tools? Such as changing the camera angle and removing the UI? キャラクタを表示させずにSS撮るとか、ツールの追加の予定はないんですか?カメラの角度変更とかUI消去とか。 Answer Bogustus We can add a cheat to turn off the UI. We can also give you a free floating camera. I ll see when we can get that into a build. チートでUI消去は一応出来るよ。Free Floating Cameraもね。 Scapes-Flagship I think I hear some cheering over in #hellgate-chat, heh Question DevBot kazanokizu 10 4asks10 errgoth was waaay to difficult before u chagned his stats but now hes a pushover besides the massibve amount of hp he has do u plan on doing anything regarding this? Answer AlanHu We certainly do. Balancing and tuning bosses is an ongoing process, and Errgoth (among other bosses) have already been adjusted in our internal builds ) Scapes-Flagship Well, Hellgaters, thus ends our second Hellgate London Developer Chat Event. We ve seen over 200 champions of humanity in attendance and have answered more than two dozen questions. Heck, you all got an exclusive scoop on changes to the UI! Scapes-Flagship THANK YOU ALL for participating tonight! Bogustus I m glad that we have these chats. I m sorry that we aren t commiting to dates on things, but we all agree that it is more important that we don t rush out buggy builds in order to meet dates. I know that this chat has added a few things to our "todo" list and adjusted some priorities. Thanks for Scapes-Flagship We ll be opening up the channel to public chat in just a second. BRoper Thanks to everyone for coming out ot the chat. We ll do more of these, and hey - we you even got some features in from this one! See you online! 2.0.0.11/2007112718]) TaylorFSS`work Thanks guys! Come back for the Third one! Scapes-Flagship Thanks again, all! MARCH ON, HELLGATERS! ForgottenSpiral ZOMBIE CHILDREN! TaylorFSS`work This channel will stay open until the next one. See you then! Korgana Dye Kits!!!! Castamir GOOOORE Scapes-Flagship ZOMBIE CHILDREN! PlatinumDevil ZOOOOMBIE CHILDREEEEEEN Wereworkingonit thanks for trolling us XD FaK gj ) Naturzauber ZOMBIE CHILDREN!!! morolen zombie children! Crysalim 3 Guest585 thank you!!!!!!! TaylorFSS`work ZOMBIE CHILDREN! InnerVisions zombie children! rrR\\hami\ D Naturzauber ZOMBIE CHILDREN!!! Naturzauber ZOMBIE CHILDREN!!! Lugard laters ) Oid Zombie children! BRoper has left channel #FlagshipStudios (以下、Scapesと参加者の雑談が続きますが省略します)
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